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-   -   Smogon bans Swagger? (http://www.victoryroad.net/showthread.php?t=11676)

kakashidragon April 14, 2014 09:41:20 AM
Smogon bans Swagger?
 
To me another pointless ban from Smogon yet. They banned the move Swagger to Ubers! Apparently they banned it cause of using this set-up: Prankster/Swagger/Foulplay

To me only like 2-3 pokemon can actully use this, and i hardly see them as it is. (On smogon i guess its seen alot) So to me another pointless ban.

Dragonite April 14, 2014 09:44:47 AM
I have a bigger problem with Focus Blast missing than with Prankster-Swagger-Foul Play so it seems kind of pointless, but I didn't vote on it so I can't say anything. It is a democratic process, believe it or not.

MattyBrollic April 14, 2014 10:27:55 AM
It's not pointless. People would bring teams entirely made up of prankster pokemon such as Klefki, Tornadus, Thundurus, Liepard, Sableye etc. Swagger would almost always go first making the battles "noncompetitive" and Smogon is a place for Competitive Battling. Yes it is true swagger/foul play sets are gimmicky and unreliable but for the sake of a healthy meta game where the battles are supposed to be as Competitive as possible, it was a smart ban.

Cat333Pokémon April 14, 2014 10:45:35 AM
I have a lot to say about Smogon, but I'm going to keep this brief. I think Smogon is full of themselves. They "ban whatever they can't beat," and it just leads to an endless domino effect of banning whatever move, ability, Pokémon, or item is at the top of OU if there is a significant enough amount of dislike for the strategy. I don't want to see a fan site control my own site.

I hope this ban allows you guys to see why I don't want to follow their OU guidelines for official battles here.

Magmaster12 April 14, 2014 10:51:00 AM
I think this video justifies Smogon and what they do and why I'm willing to defend them.



It's a pretty ridiculous set up as it as

Cat333Pokémon April 14, 2014 11:06:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magmaster12 (Post 292818)
I think this video justifies Smogon and what they do and why I'm willing to defend them.



It's a pretty ridiculous set up as it as
7:02 - "Our rules are for our community. We're not out to, like, force everyone to play by our rules. They're for our community, and they're decided by our community."

Well, that invalidated the whole video in this context. :p

Reuniclus April 14, 2014 11:49:26 AM
The only reason they did this was because of Klefki. While I do agree that Swagger + Foul Play is downright cheap, I don't think they should've banned the entire move to Ubers.

I like how they're more worried about a little key being annoying instead of the annoying bird that can have a 120 base power priority move.

Dragonite April 14, 2014 12:33:51 PM
Brilliant, this thread sure turned into a Validity of Smogon Thing quickly.

Once again I've never had a problem with Prankster-Swagger on any of the teams I've tried and none of my friends have complained about it so I'm not really sure where they got it from, but this looks like a good place to dump my Pro Smogon wall of text so here we go.

Spoiler Alert:     


I really don't get the ban whatever they can't beat line. For one, it makes it sound like Smogon is a few individual people instead of one of the largest active PokéCommunities on the Internet. For another, it's simply not true. Spend five minutes on their Facebook, YouTube, or most of their other public pages and you'll see plenty of people complaining that everything from Espeon to Spore Amoongus to Eviolite Chansey is overpowered and needs to be banished to Uber. They don't make decisions unless there's a fairly clear majority one way or another, and looking at this forum post, apparently there is.



I follow Smogon because it gives structure to competitive battling. If something starts getting "overpowered," i.e. people have to plan specifically for one single Pokémon when making a team, that throws off the balance of the tier. Some are common sense (see: endless battle) and some are a little less so (this) but any day of the week I'd rather follow Smogon rules than the alternative,



VGC. Don't even get me started on VGC. The banlist is basically "whatever's good in the anime (i.e. event/mascot legends) and nothing else." You can run Double Team Ninjask or the infamous Trick Room-Spore Amoongus and nobody will even blink, and yet no Meloetta, Victini, Celebi or Shaymin-Land? Enough said.



Lastly, there's no rule saying you have to go all or nothing when you're battling with your friends if you don't want to. This is Victory Road, not Smogon's forums. You can use the tiers without Sleep Clause, or use Sleep Clause without the tiers. Now can we please not make such a big deal over this all?

MattyBrollic April 14, 2014 01:37:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonite (Post 292821)
Brilliant, this thread sure turned into a Validity of Smogon Thing quickly.

Once again I've never had a problem with Prankster-Swagger on any of the teams I've tried and none of my friends have complained about it so I'm not really sure where they got it from, but this looks like a good place to dump my Pro Smogon wall of text so here we go.

Spoiler Alert:     


I really don't get the ban whatever they can't beat line. For one, it makes it sound like Smogon is a few individual people instead of one of the largest active PokéCommunities on the Internet. For another, it's simply not true. Spend five minutes on their Facebook, YouTube, or most of their other public pages and you'll see plenty of people complaining that everything from Espeon to Spore Amoongus to Eviolite Chansey is overpowered and needs to be banished to Uber. They don't make decisions unless there's a fairly clear majority one way or another, and looking at this forum post, apparently there is.



I follow Smogon because it gives structure to competitive battling. If something starts getting "overpowered," i.e. people have to plan specifically for one single Pokémon when making a team, that throws off the balance of the tier. Some are common sense (see: endless battle) and some are a little less so (this) but any day of the week I'd rather follow Smogon rules than the alternative,



VGC. Don't even get me started on VGC. The banlist is basically "whatever's good in the anime (i.e. event/mascot legends) and nothing else." You can run Double Team Ninjask or the infamous Trick Room-Spore Amoongus and nobody will even blink, and yet no Meloetta, Victini, Celebi or Shaymin-Land? Enough said.



Lastly, there's no rule saying you have to go all or nothing when you're battling with your friends if you don't want to. This is Victory Road, not Smogon's forums. You can use the tiers without Sleep Clause, or use Sleep Clause without the tiers. Now can we please not make such a big deal over this all?
I couldn't have said it much better myself Dragonite. Regardless of whether the people from Snogon are "full of themselves" or not, they make competitive battling a lot more healthy, organized, and in mine and the majority of others opinions, more fun. Reuniclus, you couldn't be more wrong in saying they only banned the combination because of Klefki. Swag/play got suspected tested last gen before klefki even existed. Also, it's not a strategy that people can't beat. Instead, it is a strategy that puts nearly every battlle in the hands of luck rathet than the skills of the trainers. A swag/play team is essentially a "double-edge sword" strategy that is as likely to lose as it is to win, therefore make the game NON-COMPETITIVE. Say what you will, but I have a lot of experience with Smogon's rules and I agree with nearly all of their bans. Smogon rules are the most popular by far for good reason.

Nytz April 14, 2014 03:42:24 PM
welp, My sableye is now officially rendered useless... better update my TL prize list (Prankster Sableye with eggmoves of that set)

Just a question, sorta related to topic. Manaphy. Is she banned?

EDIT: It's a shame... Smogon is the bane of my existence. First with the ban of Blaziken, and my favorite Lunar based pokemon, Darkrai, and now my sableye is no longer allowed for competitive play. It doesn't matter if you protest against it. people (especially on gaia) will just not battle you at all. They worship smogon's rules, like a cult.... it's crazy.

Even if you say, forget it, I'll play by my own rules and if you don't like it, don't play me, you often find yourself playing alone, because of Smogon worshippers. That isn't to say I don't understand why they do what they do, because I do understand, but you make these rules and now you warp the experience of a simple game.... but I argued that with the gaians... they literally "shunned" (Put me in the ignore list) me because of that.

EDIT: Needless to say, that's why I'm here in VR now... XD

MattyBrollic April 14, 2014 04:48:47 PM
Manaphy is not banned, and Sableye is still a very good pokemon even without swagger.

Dragonite April 14, 2014 04:54:58 PM
Manaphy is still good because a +3 from Tail Glow is never wasted on anything, but the lack of perma-weather now makes it easier to slow down with status and stuff. There are still plenty of other things to run on Sableye; Thunder Wave, Substitute, Recover, Toxic, Knock Off and even Mean Look, to name a few.

Nytz April 14, 2014 04:58:57 PM
Whew... ok. (I need to breed another sableye)

GrassPokemonFTW April 14, 2014 10:28:17 PM
While I've never really had much of a problem with the Swagger + Foul Play combo, it getting banned to Ubers...well, let's just say I've seen a lot of negative publicity for it being a "pointless ban". Well, it ain't pointless. From what I have seen of the play, it emphasizes the importance of luck. And while you're never going to truly get rid of the luck aspect of Pokémon, SwagPlay is kind of pushing the limit. You know, Prankster users in general are kinda iffy. (I'm sorry Whimsicott, I still love you very much)

Now no one's saying that Smogon is the final authority on competitive battling. You're free to do whatever the heck you want and nothing but the VGC rules are gonna stop ya. Also, to those who are upset because of the "pointless" ban...don't be. Because if you really thought it was that pointless then the only reason you should be upset is if it was a key point on your team (See what I did there? Key? Klefki? Ugh, I'm a living joke). Otherwise, one who thought the ban was pointless shouldn't even be upset. If it's really that pointless, then it won't effect you or anyone else. It's that simple.

Nytz April 15, 2014 05:44:52 AM
well, it isn't really the end of the world, with or without Swagger....

Ultimately, I will throw a rage for a minute, then relax afterwards.

(Really, I'm just glad I can use Manaphy again.)

kakashidragon April 15, 2014 10:36:55 AM
Well at least its something that gets the boot than Garchomp being banned again.

GreenMan April 15, 2014 12:24:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrassPokemonFTW (Post 292846)
While I've never really had much of a problem with the Swagger + Foul Play combo, it getting banned to Ubers...well, let's just say I've seen a lot of negative publicity for it being a "pointless ban". Well, it ain't pointless. From what I have seen of the play, it emphasizes the importance of luck. And while you're never going to truly get rid of the luck aspect of Pokémon, SwagPlay is kind of pushing the limit. You know, Prankster users in general are kinda iffy. (I'm sorry Whimsicott, I still love you very much)

Now no one's saying that Smogon is the final authority on competitive battling. You're free to do whatever the heck you want and nothing but the VGC rules are gonna stop ya. Also, to those who are upset because of the "pointless" ban...don't be. Because if you really thought it was that pointless then the only reason you should be upset is if it was a key point on your team (See what I did there? Key? Klefki? Ugh, I'm a living joke). Otherwise, one who thought the ban was pointless shouldn't even be upset. If it's really that pointless, then it won't effect you or anyone else. It's that simple.
Yeah they don't seem to like the fact anything that introduces more luck into the mix. It's a part of the game. So anything that adjusts accuracy gets a similar ax, at least from what I know and remember. I could be wrong. In some ways I do understand the frustration when I lose to an NPC because their quick claw activated but it's part of the game. I'm not hugely competitive, really a breeder at the moment, but I think that people might be getting upset because of loss of choose, even if it's a small combination thing.

Sub-zero April 16, 2014 05:00:33 PM
Sounds like a good enough ban. Provided with enough evidence, too. I approve! Confusion is such a pain. -_-

Charizard98 April 16, 2014 05:01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kakashidragon (Post 292814)
To me another pointless ban from Smogon yet. They banned the move Swagger to Ubers! Apparently they banned it cause of using this set-up: Prankster/Swagger/Foulplay

To me only like 2-3 pokemon can actully use this, and i hardly see them as it is. (On smogon i guess its seen alot) So to me another pointless ban.
Very much so, I run this with Liepard and to be honest, it doesn't destroy the competition. It's very easy to kill certain Pokemon who run this moveset. Rather, they're very specific with the move set you showed. Honestly, they gonna end up banning T-wave as well? :p I've managed to kill of plenty of prankster t-wave Pokemon, I don't see how they should care when things like Waterfall/Ice Fang Mega Garaydos and Skill Link Cloyster are on the loose, sweeping a lot of threats.

Sub-zero April 16, 2014 05:13:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charizard98 (Post 292888)
Very much so, I run this with Liepard and to be honest, it doesn't destroy the competition. It's very easy to kill certain Pokemon who run this moveset. Rather, they're very specific with the move set you showed. Honestly, they gonna end up banning T-wave as well? :p I've managed to kill of plenty of prankster t-wave Pokemon, I don't see how they should care when things like Waterfall/Ice Fang Mega Garaydos and Skill Link Cloyster are on the loose, sweeping a lot of threats.
But running Foul Play with Swagger raises FP power immensely. Meaning it's either 50/50 that you hurt yourself and get killed by the followed up Foul Play or "get lucky" and attack. You could argue that you can switch out, but that's exactly what kind of kills the competition. Paralysis doesn't force such a switch (sometimes not even Sleep.) And consider that the opponent may predict your switch and just go for Swagger again.

It isn't so much as a problem of being fair. The problem is the lack of skill required to run this set and win. Noob friendly and usually one sided.

Edit: Lol @ the title. no1 bans mah swag!


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