Some gamers are idiots

[Cat333Pokémon]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/09/...ders-departure

It looks like incessant whining caused the creators of a popular game series (Mass Effect) to leave game creation entirely.

[GreenMan]

I can understand when you really put your heart into something and create something for others to enjoy and it falls flat, or worse they give you negative feed back you don't watn to do it again becuase your reminded of the hurt, yes I do speak from experience unfortunately. It's sad to see the big head of companies leaving because the internet decides they don't like something in particular. When you get something you put your heart into shot down it hurts, there is no guess about it and that's how it is. I don't blame and understand them for getting out. Sad to see the internet caused this, got to love whining.

[7dewott8]

If a game has a bad ending isn't really anything to b**** about. Okay, so you don't like the ending; is it really the end of the world? No, it isn't. Your negative reactions not only hurt people who might have actually appreciated the ending, but also the creators themselves. Some people don't even know how HARD it is to make a game! And what if the next game in the series had an even better ending?! You're not helping by ranting on and on about nothing!
That's my POV on this hullabaloo. But hey; it's my opinion. and not yours. >__>

[JDxImpetus]

Originally Posted by 7dewott8

If a game has a bad ending isn't really anything to b**** about. Okay, so you don't like the ending; is it really the end of the world? No, it isn't. Your negative reactions not only hurt people who might have actually appreciated the ending, but also the creators themselves. Some people don't even know how HARD it is to make a game! And what if the next game in the series had an even better ending?! You're not helping by ranting on and on about nothing!
That's my POV on this hullabaloo. But hey; it's my opinion. and not yours. >__>

But here's the thing Ignorant Fans Lack common sense so they whine and complain
reminds me alot of the Sonic Fanbase.....

[Quadcentruo]

If you have a problem with a game, criticize it, don't complain about it. Criticism is how you tell developers to improve, complaining is how you tell developers you hate their work. Criticism makes developers want to improve, complaining makes developers want to quit.

[TediousRamen]

I think you are giving them too much credit. If they were any good at making games they would fix what the people didn't like instead of quitting.

And it wasn't just the ending, everything was awful about the game. From the emotionless characters and voice acting to the boring cover based shooter gameplay.

If anyone is acting spoiled it's the people who quit because the people didn't like what they made.

[GalliumGrant]

Originally Posted by TediousRamen

I think you are giving them too much credit. If they were any good at making games they would fix what the people didn't like instead of quitting.

And it wasn't just the ending, everything was awful about the game. From the emotionless characters and voice acting to the boring cover based shooter gameplay.

First, if they even respected the work they at least attempted to put into the game, they wouldn't have moaned about it. Secondly, by moaning they ruin it for everyone else who likes the game. Thirdly, even if it did suck, they tried to make something good, and that's what counts. It hurts when something you work so hard on flops and is hated by your fanbase. They didn't leave because the game didn't meet expectations, they left because of all the negative reactions of the fans.

[hinorashi]

Originally Posted by GalliumGrant

First, if they even respected the work they at least attempted to put into the game, they wouldn't have moaned about it. Secondly, by moaning they ruin it for everyone else who likes the game. Thirdly, even if it did suck, they tried to make something good, and that's what counts. It hurts when something you work so hard on flops and is hated by your fanbase. They didn't leave because the game didn't meet expectations, they left because of all the negative reactions of the fans.

Are you saying they should not develop good games, they're entitled to praise and a consumer-base, and the players have to sit there and take it just because some feelings might get hurt? That's not how the market works. Instead of being thin-skinned, they should attempt to learn from their mistakes. If they want praise without merit, maybe they should show their project to their mommy for banana stickers.

[PokeRemixStudio]

This just in, 91% of Mass Effect players are idiots! (minor spoilers)

I agree! Nobody should be given the liberty to express dissatisfaction or negative feelings about heedless corporation decisions, whether it be about insulting game endings, DLC, or even Youtube.

Clearly, the lead developers who quit are heroes. The lesson learned here is that you should just bail out instead of trying to learn from your faults. Who gives a crap about the customers... corporations deserve all the mindless praise and dollars they can squeeze out of consumers. Reap and run!

[JDxImpetus]

Constructive Criticism is different than complaining....If you complain without giving them ideas on how to make it better it doesnt help and just puts pressure on producers
look at Megaman Legends 3...before capcom pissed people off NO ONE COMPLAINED
all the fans did was help out..and gave their constructive criticism on what they want or dont want

[TediousRamen]

Not everyone is as skilled in charisma and has as much knowledge as a professional critic.

Babies cry when they need something and good parents try to fix that instead of quitting. Babies can't criticize because they don't understand everything they need, they just know when they need food or need to be changed. You can't assume that gamers understand everything they want, most only know that they want a game that's fun and has a good story.

And they were more specific on what they wanted than babies. They specificly said they wanted a better ending and instead of the makers fixing it, they quit.

This reminds me, another thing that caused this was the game journalists who reviewed Mass Effect 3 as a great game instead of making an honest review.

[mutsurf]

Oh boy. We're going to argue about this now.

[JDxImpetus]

Originally Posted by TediousRamen

Not everyone is as skilled in charisma and has as much knowledge as a professional critic.

Babies cry when they need something and good parents try to fix that instead of quitting. Babies can't criticize because they don't understand everything they need, they just know when they need food or need to be changed. You can't assume that gamers understand everything they want, most only know that they want a game that's fun and has a good story.

And they were more specific on what they wanted than babies. They specificly said they wanted a better ending and instead of the makers fixing it, they quit.

This reminds me, another thing that caused this was the game journalists who reviewed Mass Effect 3 as a great game instead of making an honest review.

They released another Ending ON DLC
if thats not giving a shot at 'pleasing' a Fanbase they are no better than Sonic fans.. like come on it goes back to the virtue if you have nothing nice to say dont say it at all
Like really they did the same thing With Dragon age 2....now thats being lazy
they asked what they wanted...and they got another ending...it's giving a mouse a cookie, you still cant please everyone

[hinorashi]

Originally Posted by JDxImpetus

it's giving a mouse a cookie, you still cant please everyone

You can get banned from singleplayer for joining a hacked game. There is no excuse for this. Banning a person from playing single player in a game they purchased.

[PokeRemixStudio]

Originally Posted by JDxImpetus

like come on it goes back to the virtue if you have nothing nice to say dont say it at all

If every gamer and reviewer followed that virtue, every game would have a 10/10 because the faults would be swept under the rug. Nobody would know which games are worth playing and which are not.

[Cat333Pokémon]

I still find it funny how crazy gaming has become that people will sling mud at one company because their products aren't of the same "standard" as another company's products they've played.

[JDxImpetus]

Originally Posted by PokeRemixStudio

If every gamer and reviewer followed that virtue, every game would have a 10/10 because the faults would be swept under the rug. Nobody would know which games are worth playing and which are not.

Im not saying that
i meant constructive criticism, not complaining
if they HELPED on saying what they wanted instead of complaining about it it would've been better
but first Lol on being banned in a single player game
ok...but its like why Constantly give ZERO help but Full on complaint

[TediousRamen]

Originally Posted by Cat333Pokémon

I still find it funny how crazy gaming has become that people will sling mud at one company because their products aren't of the same "standard" as another company's products they've played.

That has nothing to do with this.

[Fubab_107]

The thing that reminds me of this was how some game review sites got so much flak for not rating Skyward Sword a perfect 10, but still giving it 9s. It makes me just disappointed that now a days, even a 9 to some people means that a game is bad. 9 is a great score, even 8 is great. I just hate this "perfect" expectation.

[PokeRemixStudio]

Originally Posted by Fubab_107

The thing that reminds me of this was how some game review sites got so much flak for not rating Skyward Sword a perfect 10, but still giving it 9s. It makes me just disappointed that now a days, even a 9 to some people means that a game is bad. 9 is a great score, even 8 is great. I just hate this "perfect" expectation.

This is the perfect video to express that sentiment

[TediousRamen]

Originally Posted by JDxImpetus

Im not saying that
i meant constructive criticism, not complaining
if they HELPED on saying what they wanted instead of complaining about it it would've been better
but first Lol on being banned in a single player game
ok...but its like why Constantly give ZERO help but Full on complaint

Complaining helps a lot. All honest feedback helps. I don't see why you don't understand that.

[Cat333Pokémon]

Originally Posted by TediousRamen

That has nothing to do with this.

You sure? I know reviews are biased and standards increase over the years, so people expect something like GTA V or Halo 4 when other companies try similar. While they aren't of the same quality, they often are still fun games in their own regards.

[TediousRamen]

Originally Posted by Cat333Pokémon

You sure? I know reviews are biased and standards increase over the years, so people expect something like GTA V or Halo 4 when other companies try similar. While they aren't of the same quality, they often are still fun games in their own regards.

No, people expected a good game because the reviews were giving false information by saying that it was a good game.

[Quadcentruo]

Originally Posted by TediousRamen

I think you are giving them too much credit. If they were any good at making games they would fix what the people didn't like instead of quitting.

And it wasn't just the ending, everything was awful about the game. From the emotionless characters and voice acting to the boring cover based shooter gameplay.

So, do the opinions of others not matter to you or something? I've never played Mass Effect so I don't have an opinion on it, but a couple of my friends have played the series and they said they enjoyed the series with the exception of the ending of ME3.

[hinorashi]

Originally Posted by Quadcentruo

So, do the opinions of others not matter to you or something?

What does that have to do with anything and why are you arguing with straw men? The game creators were thin-skinned and quit because people didn't like their game.

Originally Posted by Quadcentruo

I've never played Mass Effect so I don't have an opinion on it, but a couple of my friends have played the series and they said they enjoyed the series with the exception of the ending of ME3.

That's nice for them.

Originally Posted by JDxImpetus

i meant constructive criticism, not complaining

Originally Posted by JDxImpetus

Constructive Criticism is different than complaining....If you complain without giving them ideas on how to make it better it doesnt help and just puts pressure on producer

I do not think you understand what constructive criticism is. If the complaints specify reasons for their displeasure, it is constructive. If the complaints do not specify reasons ( which would not allow for improvement ), it is not constructive. Voicing complaints are perfectly valid forms of critique. Alerting somebody of flaws while coddling them is not constructive criticism.

The developers show an apparent lack of emotional maturity to understand this and stormed out like a small child not receiving praise on their artwork for the first time. It's probably for the better that they exit the business if they cannot handle customer feedback. If this were any other industry, it would be unacceptable behavior. Let's say a chef who specializes in pizzas tended to burn them and people 'complained'. Rather then, let's say, not burning them in the future, the chef storms out of the pizzeria and closes shop. Simply because you're an avid fan of said company does not mean you should pardon bad behavior.

[Velociraptor78]

Oh look, it's this thread again.

Honestly, I've never played the Mass Effect series, but if the negative fan reaction was enough to make the heads of BioWare quit the gaming industry, maybe the ending really WAS that bad. But I will agree with some of the people here- Constructive criticism is always better than flat-out complaining.
Then again, we're talking about the leaders of a big industry, so they're essentially faceless and replaceable at the flick of a switch.

[ThePokeMan]

Originally Posted by TediousRamen

Complaining helps a lot. All honest feedback helps. I don't see why you don't understand that.

I don't believe that's true in the slightest degree right there. If that were true, every person who says "omg that game suks u should go out and pla cod lulz" could be taken as perfectly valid criticism, and where would that put you? They didn't tell you WHAT you did wrong, so how do you know what to fix? That's where the line between constructive criticism and complaining is drawn. If you can't point out exactly what you need changed, you're just whining about it.

Originally Posted by TediousRamen

And they were more specific on what they wanted than babies. They specificly said they wanted a better ending and instead of the makers fixing it, they quit.

They actually did make another ending, and sold it as DLC, and, as far as I know, they were ragged on further by fans because of it.

I'd put that under the Megaman principle; if a Megaman game is released with old-style graphics, people complain about how it isn't different enough and ask for a different game. If they release a Megaman game with a completely different style, the fans question why they did something stupid like that, and ask for the old-style graphics game again.

The developers attempted to right their wrong by correcting it entirely, but the fanbase decided that wasn't enough, and continued to yell at them. This can only be represented by one simple question; the developers may be eager to please, but how eager are the fans to be pleased?

If the fans had stopped whining about the ending after they made a completely different one via DLC, perhaps Bioware could've redeemed themselves by making one that blew everyone away come Mass Effect 4. However, the fans chose to continue, and they forced Bioware out.

Originally Posted by Cat333Pokémon

You sure? I know reviews are biased and standards increase over the years, so people expect something like GTA V or Halo 4 when other companies try similar. While they aren't of the same quality, they often are still fun games in their own regards.

On a somewhat related note, I recall an incident where a reviwer was fire for not giving a game (Gears of War 3 iirc) a good review, despite the fact that the page was littered with ads to buy it. The company paid the site to give the game a good review, and the reviewer chose to actively criticise it instead.

[Yoshi648]

In my day all we got when we finished a game was GAME OVER or CONGRATULATIONS! or something to that extent. We didn't go complaining about it because it wasn't about the ending, but enjoying the journey we took to get there.

*Man, I'm only 21 and I already feel like an old man ranting about how everything was better in my day and people don't take stuff for granted anymore.

[hinorashi]

Originally Posted by ThePokeMan

I don't believe that's true in the slightest degree right there. If that were true, every person who says "omg that game suks u should go out and pla cod lulz" could be taken as perfectly valid criticism, and where would that put you? They didn't tell you WHAT you did wrong, so how do you know what to fix? That's where the line between constructive criticism and complaining is drawn. If you can't point out exactly what you need changed, you're just whining about it.

They were told what was wrong. That's why the guy wanted to quit. If he was quitting over people saying "omg that game suks u should go out and pla cod lulz" as you put it, he'd look like even more foolish. Did you even bother to read the article?

An ex-Bioware developer has claimed the negative fan reaction to Mass Effect 3 and Star Wars: The Old Republic led to company founders Greg Zeschuk and Ray Muzyka leaving both Bioware and the games industry.

"You have to love games and you put your heart into them to create them. To have the fans creating petitions against the work is pretty hard to take, especially when you've spent the last few years crunching overtime to try and ship a game. It can be hard to shut off the overwhelming negativity the internet spews forth, especially when it has your name or the name of your company in it."

He's citing the petition where fans wished to changing the ending in this regard. The Old Republic's lukewarm sales and people not praising him for Mass Effect 3's ending are why he wanted to quit.

[JDxImpetus]

Originally Posted by hinorashi

What does that have to do with anything and why are you arguing with straw men? The game creators were thin-skinned and quit because people didn't like their game.



That's nice for them.





I do not think you understand what constructive criticism is. If the complaints specify reasons for their displeasure, it is constructive. If the complaints do not specify reasons ( which would not allow for improvement ), it is not constructive. Voicing complaints are perfectly valid forms of critique. Alerting somebody of flaws while coddling them is not constructive criticism.

The developers show an apparent lack of emotional maturity to understand this and stormed out like a small child not receiving praise on their artwork for the first time. It's probably for the better that they exit the business if they cannot handle customer feedback. If this were any other industry, it would be unacceptable behavior. Let's say a chef who specializes in pizzas tended to burn them and people 'complained'. Rather then, let's say, not burning them in the future, the chef storms out of the pizzeria and closes shop. Simply because you're an avid fan of said company does not mean you should pardon bad behavior.

ok..
1.I am not a Fan of Mass Effect 3, I'm just defending the Developers. cause why would i defend a game that bans you from Single player The BASIS of most single player games.
2. When developers ATTEMPT to Give you the game what you want but they Nit Pick at the teeny-tiny things about the Game such as the Ending, and Complain without Helping, how is that improving a game, how is that helping the dev's
3. The Ending.....can someone come up with an ending that does. 1). Causes no Loopholes. 2).Satisfies EVERYONE or 3). Give several endings.. Which i dont necessarily condone cause, Look at Shadow the Hedgehog with it's 10 endings.....
I am not Pardoning bad behavior but look at the Fans first then Look at the developers..If I constantly Nit-Pick and Complain about something and Not help out with One simple thing. like Give an Order at a restaurant and the waiter comes with your food...Then you say you want something else and tell them To take it back...how will the Waiter and Chef feel about that...

[PokeRemixStudio]

I watched the endings myself, and given the magnitude of the series it was like giving the Lord of the Rings trilogy a morbid Looney Toons cartoon ending. It rushes to end it, and leaves many plotholes and makes all the characters seem screwed over, even in the best endings. and Porky Pig pops out of a hole and shouts th-th-t-th-that's all, folks! It's something the writers are responsible for, but the lead developers felt shameful enough to quit anyway. But maybe they're a little bit accountable for accepting the original ending. Maybe they shouldn't have said to the writers "I'll take whatever ending you an come up with in 30 minutes right now. I don't care if you're drunk."

[ThePokeMan]

Originally Posted by hinorashi

They were told what was wrong. That's why the guy wanted to quit. If he was quitting over people saying "omg that game suks u should go out and pla cod lulz" as you put it, he'd look like even more foolish. Did you even bother to read the article?

I actually wasn't referencing the article there, but the earlier post saying that complaining is a valid source of feedback.

Since it's clear that everyone here is having a different outlook on how this happened, I'll tell you my perspective. I believe this whole incident was caused by a 60/40 split, with 60 percent of the blame falling on the fans. The (majority of) fans did tell Bioware what was wrong, and they didn't truly complain, but I still think the message got through to them after the first 5,000 fans or so told them what was wrong, as with Mass Effect 3's ending.

As for The Old Republic, you can't really help that. Games sell badly all the time, and the dev team just has to face the facts that their game just isn't what they expected it to be. That's no reason to quit, it should re-enforce a positive attitude to make your existing projects better. In that regard, Bioware was wrong to double over and leave the industry.

However, I still believe that the fans did cause this to happen more than the developers did. Imagine this: you write a speech and recite to a crowd of 40,000. After you recite your speech, about 25,000 people come up to you during the next few weeks to tell you how much it flat-out sucked because it was missing X aspect near the end. After the first few, you'd be bound to be a bit ticked that people are continuously pointing out what you did wrong, so you rewrite it and get about 35,000 to come back and listen to the amended version.

After you give this, about 5,000 of them tell you that this version was better, and that they were satisfied. However, about 20,000 of them tell you that because your first one was so bad, that they just tuned you out and made conversation with themselves, and then continue to criticise your first draft.

At that point, I believe that the fans' demeaning nature towards such a simple aspect as the ending truly came as a kick to the face to Bioware, so I can perfectly see why they decided to leave the industry for good.

[PokeRemixStudio]

Originally Posted by ThePokeMan

However, I still believe that the fans did cause this to happen more than the developers did. Imagine this: you write a speech and recite to a crowd of 40,000. After you recite your speech, about 25,000 people come up to you during the next few weeks to tell you how much it flat-out sucked because it was missing X aspect near the end. After the first few, you'd be bound to be a bit ticked that people are continuously pointing out what you did wrong, so you rewrite it and get about 35,000 to come back and listen to the amended version.

After you give this, about 5,000 of them tell you that this version was better, and that they were satisfied. However, about 20,000 of them tell you that because your first one was so bad, that they just tuned you out and made conversation with themselves, and then continue to criticise your first draft.

Was the speech the final part of an exhilerating, critically-acclaimed speech trilogy, and everyone listening was an enthusiastic fan of the speaker who had invested $150+ and 20+ hours in hearing their previous speeches and were promised to be satisfied, if not amazed, once again? If that was the case, then your analogy would accurately reflect Bioware's situation, and at that point the person giving the speech would have be sitting on mounds of money, fanmail, and notability for the past 5 years, thanks to the implicit success of previous speeches.

All those people would say the speech (or the game) sucked because they were drawn into a rewarding saga, invested a lot of money and time into the series, and most of all, because they cared. They're loyal once-loving fans who believe they've been given the proverbial finger. Screwed over. Cheated of their money. Even after Bioware redid the ending 3 months later, the principal of the "how could they?" decision on their part still remains with the fans. The DLC ending also had some of the plotholes that the original ending had.

The scenario you present, the speaker being some random Schmoe demanding little of their listeners, would be if all of Mass Effect was a free indie game with a 3-hour campaign. Even if the game had the same bad ending, you wouldn't have the tens of thousands of fans bashing you, because they never cared much about the game to begin with.

[hinorashi]

Originally Posted by ThePokeMan

I actually wasn't referencing the article there, but the earlier post saying that complaining is a valid source of feedback.

Expressing dissatisfaction ( read: a complaint ) weighs demerits and is a valid form of criticism. The game is ultimately targeted towards the consumers. If the consumers are unhappy, it's better to listen to their dissatisfaction instead of demonizing them.

Originally Posted by ThePokeMan

As for The Old Republic, you can't really help that.

He voiced that as one of the reasons of his resignation.

Originally Posted by ThePokeMan

However, I still believe that the fans did cause this to happen more than the developers did.

What, create a petition asking for a better ending while raising $40,000 for charity? Those mean idiot jerks. Grrr!

The article's headline shows a clear bias and this thread demonstrates the attention span of their readers will not follow through to the actual article. There are plenty of other ways to portray this.

"Former Bioware employee suggests "overwhelming negativity" to Mass Effect 3 and The Old Republic forced the founders out.." Frames it in one light. How about this? "Bioware employee responsible for widely disliked Mass Effect 3 ending resigns in disgrace amidst criticisms and poor sales figures.".

[Quadcentruo]

It seems the BioWare doctors didn't leave due to negative responses at all. It was just a blown up rumor from one of the other employees.

[PokeRemixStudio]

Some game journalists are idiots.