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  #1  
Old January 1, 2013, 04:11:48 PM
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Default HM Slaves

Alright, almost everyone here should know what an HM Slave is: a Pokémon that receives a lot of field moves and typically is absolutely useless for battling on a team. These things are notorious for being extremely annoying in post game, especially Pokémon with Fly.

For now, let's just look over the field moves and their uses in Black 2/White 2. Post game is defined as when the league is beaten and all areas have been visited. Anything with "Pokédex" means it's used to hunt specific Pokémon.

HM/TMMoveUsePost game
HM01CutReaching inaccessible areasPokédex
HM02FlyFast travelPractically required
HM03SurfReaching inaccessible areasMostly Pokédex
HM04StrengthSlotting bouldersNone
HM05WaterfallReaching inaccessible areasMostly Pokédex
HM06DiveReaching Abyssal RuinsNone
TM28DigEscaping cavesNone with Escape Ropes
TM70FlashSeeing in dark cavesMostly Pokédex
-TeleportEscaping to a Pokémon CenterNone with Escape Ropes/Dig and Fly
-Sweet ScentFinding wild PokémonPokédex
-SoftboiledSharing HPNone with items/money
-Milk DrinkSharing HPNone with items/money

Really, do we still need these things? Surf and the two HP recovery moves are the only ones that have much use competitively, while many of the others can be annoying for the game team. Surf can be replaced with a surfboard, Flash with a flashlight, Dig with a shovel, Cut with hedge clippers, and the others mostly not used.

Fly would require a bit of thinking, but it's the one that most desperately needs replacement with an item. It's practically required for enjoying the game, as you need to visit many different cities to do daily activities, breed eggs, challenge the PWT/League/Subway, etc. What also makes it difficult is mostly only birds can learn it, so you're nearly forced to have a bird on your game team.

Last edited by Cat333Pokémon; January 1, 2013 at 04:16:43 PM.
  #2  
Old January 1, 2013, 04:42:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat333Pokémon View Post
Surf can be replaced with a surfboard, Flash with a flashlight, Dig with a shovel, Cut with hedge clippers, and the others mostly not used.
The true irony here is that there WAS a surfboard item programmed into Red/Blue/Yellow, if you dig around in the code. It was fully functional if you could hack it into the game, and worked just like Surf did. Apparently, it could be purchased at a shop, and would be slotted into your inventory like the Bike was. They most likely took it out due to the limited amount of items you could keep in the first-generation games, but that's just my opinion there.
  #3  
Old January 1, 2013, 04:50:08 PM
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Then they should bring it back, along with the other ideas. It could work and allow you to actually use all six slots without wasting any Pokémon.
  #4  
Old January 1, 2013, 04:51:06 PM
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Waterfall has some competitive use to many Physical Water Types. Well for most of them actually.
  #5  
Old January 1, 2013, 04:58:56 PM
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Oh yeah, Waterfall is pretty useful competitively too, as a physical version of Surf in singles.
  #6  
Old January 1, 2013, 05:34:17 PM
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Yeah waterfall, aqua tail, aqua jet are the only water type physical moves that you get to use, it puts Pokemon like Swampert at a disadvantage along with Gyrados because one of their types is almost useless for stab, at least its got something. Also waterfall has a chance to make the opponent flinch if I recall right.
  #7  
Old January 1, 2013, 05:44:46 PM
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Surf and Waterfall still have their uses in competitive play, like Phantom said (at least for Waterfall). Even Softboiled has its use for the Blissey/Chansey wall users. Other than those moves, most of these moves are only used for completing the dex (like you said) or obtaining certain items.

The HM moves do force you to carefully consider your team while moving throughout the main-game, however. It forces you to decide on sacrificing a moveslot for one Pokémon to progress through the game, limiting its usefulness in battle, or sacrificing an entire member slot for a Pokémon that can learn four HM moves so you can take full advantage of the rest of your team, but lose one member that would otherwise be useful in battles.
  #8  
Old January 2, 2013, 06:35:47 AM
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Its annoying cause I remember while doing the Black 2 before the champion, finding a good HM slave was really annoying. I had to wait til post game to get a decent HM slave (bibarel).
Tbh I feel the whole HM idea has had its day now and they need certain items like Cat said to clear obstacles in the game.
  #9  
Old January 2, 2013, 06:55:38 AM
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Sometimes I like packing HM stuff into just one (in Generation IV)

In Generation V games, though, I deliberately spread it out... and make it so that the team can cover most bases in the first place. Even if one move is useless, the other three will more than make up for it, especially if the "missing" move is just a level-up move or easily relearned or replaced with TM.

Items, though... Speaking of flashlights, I've always used my phone as a flashlight. Even the screen lights up enough... wait a second... maybe that explains the slight light around the player since Gen III... something has to emit light, right?

Last edited by Twiggy; January 2, 2013 at 06:56:43 AM.
  #10  
Old January 2, 2013, 01:29:41 PM
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The PokéNav, Pokétch, and Xtransceiver!

I personally recommend Frillish and Rufflet, as they can learn most of the moves. Pity one of them is a version-exclusive, and I don't think Vullaby can learn Strength.

However, I definitely think it might not be too tough to integrate most of the critical moves. If you already have something that can learn Fly and aren't dealing with a serious team, you can stick that in, and there is a very good chance you have something that can learn Surf/Waterfall on your team. Cut is also fairly easy to integrate and is alright in playing through the game. I think the rest of the moves really are a bit situational and can be put on it temporarily for the areas that require it. Hm, I guess you can keep a full team of six for the most part, as long as you know ahead of time what areas require what HMs. I know the guide book I have shows that.

Last edited by Cat333Pokémon; January 2, 2013 at 01:30:01 PM.
  #11  
Old October 28, 2013, 09:18:30 PM
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I'm going to bump this thread up because this problem still hasn't been solved in Pokémon X and Y. Fly is still required to play, even well into the post-game, and it's incredibly annoying having to constantly dig out a flyer while you're trying to train or breed or anything else that involves going all over the place. (Hey, at least Fletchinder has Flame Body and can learn Fly.) That stupid move really should be made obsolete with some kind of key item. At least none of the other moves are so bad that you need them on hand at all times.
  #12  
Old October 29, 2013, 02:50:28 AM
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Fly isn't a stupid move, it's one of few good flying moves. The only drawback it has is that it's two-turn. This problem is probably never going to be solved. What kind of key item would teleport you across a region?
  #13  
Old October 29, 2013, 07:42:41 AM
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I hate being forced to have a bird (or one of the very few non-Flying types) on my team from the moment Fly can be obtained, though. It's not a bad move, but it's not versatile like, say, Surf, and Surf isn't necessary once you clear all the side routes.
  #14  
Old October 29, 2013, 10:50:49 AM
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I used to have room for all my favorite pokémon of the new generation on my team. Now, post-game, I am practically forced to keep a level 20 or so Fletchinder with me, and during Victory Road I carried around my complete HM slave Lapras (20 levels below the rest of my team at the time, knowing Surf, Waterfall, Strength, Rock Smash) just to get through.

I always thought that HMs existed more for objectives than anything else, aside from Fly. Now that most of them are literally given to you at various points in the story, why have them at all? They're a mostly unnecessary hassle.

Then we come to Fly. It is, in my opinion at least, the most useful field move in the game, but it is so limited! Back in the day when I ran an all Ghost team in Gen IV, I had to train a Drifblim, my least favorite of all Ghosts, just so I had a flier. Now Golurk can learn it too, but I never liked him in actual battles, although this is more personal preference.

It is a necessity, but why can't it be an item? Sure, the 'flavor' of flying on a pokémon is lost, but it becomes much less of a hassle.

In the anime they repeatedly use teleporters in place of the game's PC storage, transferring pokémon from Prof. Oak to wherever Ash happens to be. In Pokémon Colosseum and XD an Abra would transport you back to the entrance of Mt. Battle at any of the ten or so rest points. In the main series, the move Teleport can transport you to a recently visited Pokémon Center.

Thus, it is perfectly viable that the people in the pokémon world could invent a teleporter, and that it could be used to transport yourself from any locaton to a town, city, or other checkpoint already visited. Why not?
  #15  
Old October 29, 2013, 12:22:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarellethiel View Post
Thus, it is perfectly viable that the people in the pokémon world could invent a teleporter, and that it could be used to transport yourself from any locaton to a town, city, or other checkpoint already visited. Why not?
If Teleport had the option of doing what Fly does, that would be very, very nice.
  #16  
Old October 29, 2013, 12:27:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Cat333Pokémon View Post
If Teleport had the option of doing what Fly does, that would be very, very nice.
No it wouldn't. Teleport is an even more useless move because it's nothing in battle. The only advantage it has is that it can be deleted with a TM, but how would you restore it? Heart Scale? Pfft. A teleporter would be a nice idea, but how would you imagine a portable one?

Only thing I have to say against HMs is that they'd be less annoying if I always didn't have to fly to a move deleter to get them removed. That's why I loathe getting Cut in the beginning of the game, it takes forever to get rid of. But I keep Fly and Surf around because they're the most accurate and powerful flying/water moves on hand.
  #17  
Old October 29, 2013, 12:30:53 PM
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Oh yeah, a teleporter. Hey, I'm not all here today.
  #18  
Old October 29, 2013, 12:42:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Cat333Pokémon View Post
Oh yeah, a teleporter. Hey, I'm not all here today.
Doof

What it seems like to me "I can't have a team of my favorites because this game is challenging!" Now I'm not saying anything about the difficulty level, but the challenge of being ready to push boulders, surf across oceans, cut thin trees, etc. What kind of adventure would it be if it were easy and void of obstacles?

After the main story's over I can see there being a teleporter becoming available. But no gift comes without a price. In Earthbound it cost 2 PP to teleport, and 8 to teleport more efficiently. If it ran on some kind of fuel (like maybe the Vs. Seeker's steps) then I could see it happening.
  #19  
Old October 29, 2013, 02:48:33 PM
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i rely on Shaun, my latios [named after a joke i made]
hes a complete slave with fly, waterfall, surf, and dive.
they should have a move with all 3 water type hms to work as one.
  #20  
Old October 29, 2013, 06:02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurtwigX View Post
What it seems like to me "I can't have a team of my favorites because this game is challenging!" Now I'm not saying anything about the difficulty level, but the challenge of being ready to push boulders, surf across oceans, cut thin trees, etc. What kind of adventure would it be if it were easy and void of obstacles?
I agree in that sense. HMs do have a purpose. However, what if, instead, you didn't actually have to have a pokémon knowing the move with you? Aside from the teleporter idea, maybe you get the Strength HM that allows you to teach the move, but as long as you have it, you can use it as if you did? In retrospect I may have seemed a little spoiled or some such thing there, but pokémon is designed to be a game of individuality and connectivity. There are supposed to be options. One article I read said it was so successful because it let children identify themselves and each other by what they liked and what they didn't like. Everyone is different, and things like the new Trainer Customization encourage that. However, if everyone has to use a Lapras (such as the one given to you in X/Y), where is the individuality in that?

A comparison I often bring up is the game Fossil Fighters. It had a similar concept to pokémon but revolved around dinosaurs and whatnot. In that game, after completing objectives in the story you would be given items that allowed you to breathe underwater or survive in the center of a volcano to gain access to new areas, which is the point of most HMs. Why not do something similar in pokémon?
  #21  
Old October 29, 2013, 07:21:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tarellethiel View Post
I agree in that sense. HMs do have a purpose. However, what if, instead, you didn't actually have to have a pokémon knowing the move with you? Aside from the teleporter idea, maybe you get the Strength HM that allows you to teach the move, but as long as you have it, you can use it as if you did? In retrospect I may have seemed a little spoiled or some such thing there, but pokémon is designed to be a game of individuality and connectivity. There are supposed to be options. One article I read said it was so successful because it let children identify themselves and each other by what they liked and what they didn't like. Everyone is different, and things like the new Trainer Customization encourage that. However, if everyone has to use a Lapras (such as the one given to you in X/Y), where is the individuality in that?

A comparison I often bring up is the game Fossil Fighters. It had a similar concept to pokémon but revolved around dinosaurs and whatnot. In that game, after completing objectives in the story you would be given items that allowed you to breathe underwater or survive in the center of a volcano to gain access to new areas, which is the point of most HMs. Why not do something similar in pokémon?
Hmm... interesting digs, really. The Lapras thing really did strike me as odd. Why does it get its own special model for Surfing? Was that really necessary or are they just showing off the advanced capabilities? (Then I came to the conclusion that it's just Kanto fanservice appeal.)

It's true that there are hundreds of Pokemon so that there's more individuality in a trainer. There's even more individuality in the Pokemon with the many different values that go into its training. Forcing a bird or fish onto your team kinda interrupts this view, but not exactly. The game itself seduces you into getting a flying type, they're usually the first Pokemon seen in the game. And strangely enough there are some Pokemon like NIDOKING that learn Surf for whatever reason... As for the other HMs, a wide variety of Pokemon are able to learn them so it's very rare that your team, unless specifically gimmicky, won't be able to learn a certain HM. I don't think the game encourages HM slaves by having Pokemon learn multiple moves, but they want you to balance a team of strong Pokemon and ones hindered by HM moves. (But I still think Fly and Surf are the best.)

As for Fossil Fighters, I used to be interested in that. I have no idea how it functions, but I assume that you meant the humans were the ones with the traveling abilities? I'm guessing they had tools or suits of some sort. Pokemon as it is now wouldn't work like that because the humans are... just human. They possess no real power besides giving direction and heart. They definitely cannot use Technical Machines on themselves either. Using Pokemon: The Origin as a source, since I believe it is the most accurate representation of the games, a TM/HM looks like a Floppy Disk. They didn't show how it work worked on the Pokemon, but it was pretty clear that in a human's hands it's just an item. Holding HM Cut would be as useful as hugging a cactus and hoping it crumbles. Now there could be tools to replace cut, like Ramos could've given you his hugeass garden shears. But for just about all of the major issues in that world they believe can be solved with Pokemon and cooperating with them.

Which is another huge theme of the games, cooperation. Those who treat them as tools and don't care for the bond lose, while the hero (not the player, some of you guys can be jerks) has a connection, and always wins.

Last edited by TurtwigX; October 30, 2013 at 07:20:19 PM.
  #22  
Old October 30, 2013, 05:25:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurtwigX View Post
Hmm... interesting digs, really. The Lapras thing really did strike me as odd. Why does it get its own special model for Surfing? Was that really necessary or are they just showing off the advanced capabilities? (The I came to the conclusion that it's just Kanto fanservice appeal.)

It's true that there are hundreds of Pokemon so that there's more individuality in a trainer. There's even more individuality in the Pokemon with the many different values that go into its training. Forcing a bird or fish onto your team kinda interrupts this view, but not exactly. The game itself seduces you into getting a flying type, they're usually the first Pokemon seen in the game. And strangely enough there are some Pokemon like NIDOKING that learn Surf for whatever reason... As for the other HMs, a wide variety of Pokemon are able to learn them so it's very rare that your team, unless specifically gimmicky, won't be able to learn a certain HM. I don't think the game encourages HM slaves by having Pokemon learn multiple moves, but they want you to balance a team of strong Pokemon and ones hindered by HM moves. (But I still think Fly and Surf are the best.)

As for Fossil Fighters, I used to be interested in that. I have no idea how it functions, but I assume that you meant the humans were the ones with the traveling abilities? I'm guessing they had tools or suits of some sort. Pokemon as it is now wouldn't work like that because the humans are... just human. They possess no real power besides giving direction and heart. They definitely cannot use Technical Machines on themselves either. Using Pokemon: The Origin as a source, since I believe it is the most accurate representation of the games, a TM/HM looks like a Floppy Disk. They didn't show how it work worked on the Pokemon, but it was pretty clear that in a human's hands it's just an item. Holding HM Cut would be as useful as hugging a cactus and hoping it crumbles. Now there could be tools to replace cut, like Ramos could've given you his hugeass garden shears. But for just about all of the major issues in that world they believe can be solved with Pokemon and cooperating with them.

Which is another huge theme of the games, cooperation. Those who treat them as tools and don't care for the bond lose, while the hero (not the player, some of you guys can be jerks) has a connection, and always wins.
Got me with the connection bit, and yes that is a valuable message. I could bring up my Lovecraftian pessimism and point out that the good guy shouldn't always win, but that would be way off-topic.

Really pokémon will likely stick with the HM system, and it trades in practicality for flavor and, of course, the message. I suppose that's part of what makes it awesome.
  #23  
Old November 5, 2013, 01:46:41 PM
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In -game, I usually just slap my HMs on my team members because I don't like benching anyone just for HM slave(s).

Post-game, I have this weird obsession with using legendaries as my HM slaves. Ho-oh for Fly, Arceus for Cut, Strength and Waterfall, Kyogre for Surf and Dive, etc.
 
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