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  #101  
Old August 18, 2010, 08:09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaredvcxz View Post
I basically believe in my own form of god too. Like, I don't believe that hell is forever. That completely contradicts the teachings that god has eternal love and forgiveness.
If there was such thing as "eternal pain and punishment" as hell, then it wouldn't be too bad after a while. You'd get used to it. Same goes for heaven, eternal joy...
  #102  
Old August 18, 2010, 10:24:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Serenade View Post
If there was such thing as "eternal pain and punishment" as hell, then it wouldn't be too bad after a while. You'd get used to it. Same goes for heaven, eternal joy...
Actually, that's kind of the point of Hell. Eternal pain. So if Hell is what it's cut out to be, you never get used to it. As soon as you start getting used to one pain, you go to the other. Same with Heaven. Never ending joy means never ending... You can't really get used to never ending.
  #103  
Old August 19, 2010, 01:45:30 AM
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The idea of having to go where other people tell you to seems lulzy.

When I die, there's no kitty-ing way I'm going to the Christian hell or heaven. Or the Islamic or Jewish versions.

If I'm a bad person, I'm being sent back here. If I'm good, I get to flutter away into the Ethereal Becoming and begin to live out all of my spiritual fantasies. A neverending dream.

It is within my own personal belief that whatever one believes, begets the fate they belong to. If a Christian is good, they go to good little Christian heaven. If not, bad little Christian hell. If you're Agnostic, nothing happens. So on, so forth.
  #104  
Old August 19, 2010, 05:03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by .name//Technomancer View Post
The idea of having to go where other people tell you to seems lulzy.

When I die, there's no kitty-ing way I'm going to the Christian hell or heaven. Or the Islamic or Jewish versions.

If I'm a bad person, I'm being sent back here. If I'm good, I get to flutter away into the Ethereal Becoming and begin to live out all of my spiritual fantasies. A neverending dream.

It is within my own personal belief that whatever one believes, begets the fate they belong to. If a Christian is good, they go to good little Christian heaven. If not, bad little Christian hell. If you're Agnostic, nothing happens. So on, so forth.
Actually, I really like your take on it. I have also thought about that. I like the idea of believing what you want to, kind of like God being different to every person.

But if you were agnostic, doesn't that just mean unsure? Why would nothing happen? That would suck. I just figure they would live in a dream. I would actually love that myself.
  #105  
Old August 19, 2010, 05:12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash Crimson View Post

I'm also tired of people trying to use God as a threat. I thought he was a good guy? The guy who cared about you? Not the guy who took his beloved children and damn them all to hell for not believing in him when he himself never took the time to come to his children and help them understand that he really was there. Some people can not see his light as easily as others.
I believe that he is God, and when we say God, then he should be the best in everything, I believe. One thing is to be fair with all people. Let us say you were good in your life. You made some minor sins, but overall, you were good. On the other hand, another person was evil; he murdered people for fun or to conquer their land, etc. If both of you went to Heaven, it would be unfair, right? In order to fulfill his duty as a God, he should be fair with his people; those who are good will be in Heavens, and those who are on the opposite side will be in Hell. Now what you said about those who never knew about him is treated fair enough in the Islamic belief. Generally, it is a rule that those who never knew about God because they were poor or just never knew about him and no one ever told them about him will be forgiven and sent to Heavens. Well, personally, I always believe that he is the God of Mercy. I never took him as a threat, but a very kind father actually. I always believe in his forgiveness to all the humans. That is just me though.
  #106  
Old August 19, 2010, 05:30:32 AM
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Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
I believe that he is God, and when we say God, then he should be the best in everything, I believe. One thing is to be fair with all people. Let us say you were good in your life. You made some minor sins, but overall, you were good. On the other hand, another person was evil; he murdered people for fun or to conquer their land, etc. If both of you went to Heaven, it would be unfair, right? In order to fulfill his duty as a God, he should be fair with his people; those who are good will be in Heavens, and those who are on the opposite side will be in Hell. Now what you said about those who never knew about him is treated fair enough in the Islamic belief. Generally, it is a rule that those who never knew about God because they were poor or just never knew about him and no one ever told them about him will be forgiven and sent to Heavens. Well, personally, I always believe that he is the God of Mercy. I never took him as a threat, but a very kind father actually. I always believe in his forgiveness to all the humans. That is just me though.
I can see where you are coming from. It just seems to me that God went from being something personal and loving to something unfair and feared. I mean, it really does seem anymore that people use God to control the public. You have to do exactly as others deem right, or God will send you to hell. I don't necessarily find that true or right.

And also, like the example you've given me. I believe that God should be fair, of course. But seriously. Eternal life in a place like Hell? That's not fair. I mean, no matter what they did, they don't deserve eternal pain and suffering. That's just evil... Possibly more evil than they are. I mean, the murderer should definitely be pushed more than a tiny smack on the wrist, but wow.

I always tried to take him as a father, but all the things I learned over the years, I couldn't always view him as a father but as someone who wants to push us around and punish us for the things that we didn't want to do. I mean, some people have a murderous instinct inside them. Some people are just born like that. I mean, it's both their fault and their natural instinct. I mean, why would God punish us for living these instincts out when he won't even show himself before us? I don't understand God at all. My parents never really helped with that while I was growing up either.
  #107  
Old August 19, 2010, 07:31:01 AM
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I is Buddhist. A particular form of the original, to be more precise. That's all I'm gonna say.
  #108  
Old August 19, 2010, 12:03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Ash Crimson View Post
I can see where you are coming from. It just seems to me that God went from being something personal and loving to something unfair and feared. I mean, it really does seem anymore that people use God to control the public. You have to do exactly as others deem right, or God will send you to hell. I don't necessarily find that true or right.

And also, like the example you've given me. I believe that God should be fair, of course. But seriously. Eternal life in a place like Hell? That's not fair. I mean, no matter what they did, they don't deserve eternal pain and suffering. That's just evil... Possibly more evil than they are. I mean, the murderer should definitely be pushed more than a tiny smack on the wrist, but wow.

I always tried to take him as a father, but all the things I learned over the years, I couldn't always view him as a father but as someone who wants to push us around and punish us for the things that we didn't want to do. I mean, some people have a murderous instinct inside them. Some people are just born like that. I mean, it's both their fault and their natural instinct. I mean, why would God punish us for living these instincts out when he won't even show himself before us? I don't understand God at all. My parents never really helped with that while I was growing up either.
I have to agree with you on a point. After reading several historic books, I came across many people, in the Jewish, Christian and Islamic societies, where these people seized power, and used it to control people under the name of God. It is clear enough that what they were doing their own selfish ambitions, but just used God as an excuse. All kinds of leaders in the past were like that; most of them to be fair. It is just like now. Most presidents control the countries and steel money from the government and oppress the citizens under the name of democracy.

I want to remind you that in all kinds of Abrahamic religions, people have been warned that there is Hell. In other words, we were all foretold about this, so there is no excuse. Not only that, but don't forget that there is something else other than Hell. There is Heavens. Why do we have to criticize Hell when there is Heavens. Seriously, if people were that right, they should have aimed to be in eternal joy rather than shouting at God because of eternal pain.

As a conclusion, with Heavens to aim for, and with the warning before hand about Hell, eternal pain is fair, in my opinion.
  #109  
Old February 13, 2011, 10:19:56 PM
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Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
I want to remind you that in all kinds of Abrahamic religions, people have been warned that there is Hell. In other words, we were all foretold about this, so there is no excuse. Not only that, but don't forget that there is something else other than Hell. There is Heavens. Why do we have to criticize Hell when there is Heavens. Seriously, if people were that right, they should have aimed to be in eternal joy rather than shouting at God because of eternal pain.

As a conclusion, with Heavens to aim for, and with the warning before hand about Hell, eternal pain is fair, in my opinion.
But lots of people aren't warned...

What about all the native Americans that lived and died before Europeans ever came to proselytize to them? What about Chinese people in the time before Christianity became popular enough in the west for them to hear about it? What about all the pagans that lived in Europe before the rise of Christianity?

And besides that, people are warned in a very contradictory manner - Is Islam the one true path to being saved? Does only Christianity work? What about Judaism? Or are they all acceptable? And what about the NON-Abrahamic religions? If god is both powerful and good, why are there so many Taoists, Buddhists, and Hindus that he has let stray? Is not the only reason that they are not Christian that they were not warned in the proper fashion? And what about the time before Judaism developed, the time before the tribes of Israel came about?

The vast, VAST majority of people throughout time were not warned - Not even in the ineffective manner that god supposedly warns today. Are all those tens - Even hundreds - of billions of people truly now serving their 'Just reward' eternally burning in hell?
  #110  
Old February 14, 2011, 04:20:22 AM
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But lots of people aren't warned...

What about all the native Americans that lived and died before Europeans ever came to proselytize to them? What about Chinese people in the time before Christianity became popular enough in the west for them to hear about it? What about all the pagans that lived in Europe before the rise of Christianity?

And besides that, people are warned in a very contradictory manner - Is Islam the one true path to being saved? Does only Christianity work? What about Judaism? Or are they all acceptable? And what about the NON-Abrahamic religions? If god is both powerful and good, why are there so many Taoists, Buddhists, and Hindus that he has let stray? Is not the only reason that they are not Christian that they were not warned in the proper fashion? And what about the time before Judaism developed, the time before the tribes of Israel came about?

The vast, VAST majority of people throughout time were not warned - Not even in the ineffective manner that god supposedly warns today. Are all those tens - Even hundreds - of billions of people truly now serving their 'Just reward' eternally burning in hell?
If you read carefully one of my previous posts, you would notice that I was asked the same question and already answered it. In my belief, which is also my religion's, those who were never warned and never knew of the existence shall be forgiven. So, I think that settles the matter of being unwarned.

Regarding the part of different religions, then here is the confusion. There is no doubt that every religion tries to prove that it is the best, whether it is Abrahamic or non. Going into too many details about the existence of these religions can cause a great offence, so I don't really go into such conversation, not here nor in the real world. In fact, I have created my own belief that I follow: I have read about other religions and I chose the religion I want. I was born following a religion, but I did doubt my religion and asked a lot of people until I was satisfied. Apart from that, I also added to my belief that if a person, no matter who he is, is good enough and is suitable to be in heavens, then he will be in heavens. That's the way I think. Of course, to think of what I believe, you should also believe that the god who will be judging is going to be the uttermost fair.
  #111  
Old February 28, 2011, 09:14:24 PM
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Considering the direction of the thread, I'd like to chime in.

Let's say we all die.... Well, we all will eventually, but yeah. :l

In most Pagan eyes, those who bow to their respective gods will find themselves before him. Christians before Christ. Catholics before the Holy Trinity, so on. We believe if you abide by the laws and words of your religion true, whatever they may be, whatever good comes of it by your religion will be gifted to you.

The reason I say this, is because not all of the spectral universe was manifested by a single being. It is a conglomeration of great minds and powers. There cannot possibly be a single entity ruling over all; although there would be a great deal of liars and fakes attempting to turn a body of religious cleansing into a means of profit, a single being would snipe them from the heavens, I'm sure.

Every religion, spiritual faction, and historical period in time have one thing in common. Each has it's own way of telling the beginning of Earth, the Men than inhabit Earth, and the demise of both, should the Men become unruly. The Old Religion is somewhat fuzzy on the Apocalypse, since we're not exactly fixated on our end and look more to the silver lining below the black clouds.

Witches and Pagans in general will not see a fiery end and torment lasting eternity in a lake of fire, considering we do not give heed to such practices. But Christians who experiment with the Craft or alternative spiritual enlightenment will find themselves in said fiery lake. This is our way of looking at it. We don't say "OH SINCE YOU'RE NOT A BELIEVER/BOW TO GAEA, YOU'RE GOING TO BE REINCARNATED AS A WORM", considering the "lesser" party isn't not Pagan. Why should my religion affect someone else of a different religion?

Life is kinda like Ford. If we all get to be individual by driving the exact same car, what is the point of expression and individualism? Most people need guidance in life, some just need moral support. Others like to define their own fate, and others like to be lead to fate. We are individuals. We are Human [Or most of humanity is]. If we all fall under one banner, we lose our humanity.
  #112  
Old March 1, 2011, 06:13:40 AM
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Originally Posted by .name//Technomancer View Post
The reason I say this, is because not all of the spectral universe was manifested by a single being. It is a conglomeration of great minds and powers. There cannot possibly be a single entity ruling over all; although there would be a great deal of liars and fakes attempting to turn a body of religious cleansing into a means of profit, a single being would snipe them from the heavens, I'm sure.
Why is it that it cannot possibly be a single being behind all of the universe? When religions speak of one God, many of them describe him/her as the most powerful, creative and wise being who's beyond the thought of humans. If the existence of any God is superior to the physical vision and understanding of humans, then it is arguable whether there's one God or many Gods. If you ask me, it all comes down to one's belief, since both sides cannot be supported by facts. You can't prove there's only one God, and similarly you can't prove that there are many Gods. Therefore, I find it reasonable to believe that there's only one God as much as you believe there's more than one.

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Originally Posted by .name//Technomancer View Post
Life is kinda like Ford. If we all get to be individual by driving the exact same car, what is the point of expression and individualism? Most people need guidance in life, some just need moral support. Others like to define their own fate, and others like to be lead to fate. We are individuals. We are Human [Or most of humanity is]. If we all fall under one banner, we lose our humanity.
Since when was religion the only deciding factor of one's individuality? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seemed like you were saying that if we all believed in the same thing, then there would be no humanity. As far as I know, there are numerous other factors which contribute to one's individuality, including taste, behaviour, appearance and so on. Religions are there to give guidance to people who seek it. If you think you don't need any guidance in life, then you're free to abandon all religions and believe in your thoughts only.

Last edited by Shadow; March 1, 2011 at 06:20:34 AM.
  #113  
Old March 2, 2011, 01:41:57 AM
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Sorry can someone clear something up for me? Is this topic about discussing ones chosen religion or about discussing belief systems as a whole? I am an atheist and use science as a reasoning for my interpretation of life but would not post within a thread about religion if I have nothing to contribute.

I do however have a question for members who follow a religion, and I'm purely asking this out of curiosity to educate myself and not to make a point but if you follow a religion and believe a divine being made the world, to what extent do you follow science? I have noticed that people who follow a religion only disagree with the big bang theory and a few other topics but mainly accept most aspects of science. How far do you accept some science is fact or do you disagree with all science.


I know this might be a little hard to understand, I'm not entirely sure I asked it without being biased towards science. I've just realised that you all probably accept gravity as fact and will be quick to use it if someone asks you but then the one theory that challenges your religion becomes instantly invalid?

I only ask out of curiosity, this is my first post in the serious section and I feel I've thrown myself in the deep end but hopefully I've contributed in some form.


EDIT: Also I would like to point out that in England it's very uncommon to know anyone who attends church or is devoted to a religion. I find it interesting that still a large percentage of Americans attend church, and yet the large amount in England has decreased so heavily. I find this interesting as England and America are much a like.

Last edited by Falco; March 2, 2011 at 01:46:58 AM.
  #114  
Old March 2, 2011, 09:47:56 AM
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Sorry can someone clear something up for me? Is this topic about discussing ones chosen religion or about discussing belief systems as a whole? I am an atheist and use science as a reasoning for my interpretation of life but would not post within a thread about religion if I have nothing to contribute.
I think the thread doesn't specifically targets 'religion' but rather focuses on one's belief as a whole, so you're good to go.

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Originally Posted by Falco View Post
I do however have a question for members who follow a religion, and I'm purely asking this out of curiosity to educate myself and not to make a point but if you follow a religion and believe a divine being made the world, to what extent do you follow science? I have noticed that people who follow a religion only disagree with the big bang theory and a few other topics but mainly accept most aspects of science. How far do you accept some science is fact or do you disagree with all science.
Well, I personally regard religion and science more or less as complementary to each other, but that doesn't necessarily mean they influence each other. This is why the majority of scientific ideas and theories don't go against religions (at least I'm talking about my religion over here). However, it is theories like the Evolution Theory that are considered invalid by my religious teachings. I don't want to go into much detail about this confusion, but it's reasonable enough to doubt such theories considering even scientists do that.
  #115  
Old March 2, 2011, 10:41:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
I think the thread doesn't specifically targets 'religion' but rather focuses on one's belief as a whole, so you're good to go.


Well, I personally regard religion and science more or less as complementary to each other, but that doesn't necessarily mean they influence each other. This is why the majority of scientific ideas and theories don't go against religions (at least I'm talking about my religion over here). However, it is theories like the Evolution Theory that are considered invalid by my religious teachings. I don't want to go into much detail about this confusion, but it's reasonable enough to doubt such theories considering even scientists do that.
I see, so you don't believe it's one or the other but instead feel that certain areas within science are questionable. And yes evolution is another topic.
  #116  
Old March 2, 2011, 04:39:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Falco View Post
... but if you follow a religion and believe a divine being made the world, to what extent do you follow science? I have noticed that people who follow a religion only disagree with the big bang theory and a few other topics but mainly accept most aspects of science. How far do you accept some science is fact or do you disagree with all science.
Need you even ask this of me?

I'm a Technopagan, or specifically, a Technowitch. I use and involve Technology in my life and rituals. Technology and science are integral in daily life. In fact, my lifelong hero has always been Nikola Tesla, the father of modern technology and sciences. :l

I'd die without tech and my magic.
  #117  
Old March 2, 2011, 06:14:10 PM
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I'm sorry but I can not comment on your belief as I no nothing about it and I would struggle to even debate the idea of it.
  #118  
Old March 31, 2011, 12:28:07 PM
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Like GrassPokemonFTW, I'm a Buddhist. According to what I've read on my GaiaOnline guild ['A Loving Kindness'] I'm considered to be, specifically, a Mahayana Buddhist.
  #119  
Old April 1, 2011, 08:32:08 PM
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I'm a Christian-Catholic. Most people would separate Christianity from Catholicism but in my church we count ourself as Christians as well.
  #120  
Old July 30, 2011, 04:26:52 AM
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There is a lot to say about my reasoning here, but I'm going to keep it short. I am a skeptic/atheist. I believe in only the physical laws and nothing supernatural. I do not believe in a life force nor the continuation of the consciousness after death.

I was raised an orthodox christian but as I grew up I became more and more convinced that the fact that not everything can be proven and sometimes you have to believe without proof is nothing more than self-delusion. No, you cannot measure God. But you can measure the effects and veracity of religious dogma. I haven't found a single sacred dogma, phenomenon, or person or whatever to date, that can prove even a single supernatural claim without a shadow of doubt.

And the more I looked, the more ridiculous it became. Everything I've sought was riddled with logical fallacies, pseudoscience, and requirement to believe more and more outrageous claims(conspiracies hiding proof etc) to explain lack of evidence, the point where logic is turned upside-down so much that anything becomes believable. Had this method of reasoning been effective at... anything, had it had any value, had it ever created anything useful or real for mankind, I would have stuck by. But it hasn't, and so I've abandoned my old beliefs.

I don't need a reason to exist, I don't find morality in following a set of beliefs just because the "big boss" said so[insert deity here], nor do I need a daddy to ensure me that everything is gonna be alright after death. Life and death on earth has never been fair, we continue to kill to survive(plants or animals) just like we have for hundreds of millions of years, I see no reason to have to reinvent reality for the sake of personalized, sweet-sounding beliefs.

Last edited by Searinox; July 30, 2011 at 04:32:43 AM.
  #121  
Old July 30, 2011, 06:02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Falco View Post
...if you follow a religion and believe a divine being made the world, to what extent do you follow science?
A great majority, actually. Just because God made everything, it doesn't mean that science is wrong. The only thing that I "question" is the evolution theory (Quotes because I don't know everything about the evolution theory or Catholic's beliefs on the whole situation). Other than that, I fully believe in everything else science has to offer (unless I'm forgetting about something).

God made the earth do x, y, and z. God made everything do what it does. Do I make sense?
  #122  
Old July 30, 2011, 06:14:48 AM
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The only thing that I "question" is the evolution theory (Quotes because I don't know everything about the evolution theory or Catholic's beliefs on the whole situation).
"It is frequently, and rightly, said that senior clergy and theologians have no problems with evolution and, in many cases, actively support scientists in this respect. This is often true, as I know from the agreeable experience and collaborating with the then Bishop of Oxford, now Lord Harries, on two separate occasions."
-Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show on Earth



Now, it's possible that the clergy are only using this as a tool to gain more members to the church by leveling with the scientific folk, but the fact remains that they agree with the theory.

(and that, everyone, is how you make a REAL debate post)
  #123  
Old July 30, 2011, 04:59:42 PM
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I, personally, don't follow any religion. I think that religious lessons and texts are moral guidelines, and nothing more. if we get caught up interpreting them literally, we're doing nothing but hurting ourselves. Religion tells us how to better ourselves, not how to command others to live.
  #124  
Old July 30, 2011, 05:28:27 PM
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The thing about religious scriptures is that they're like the US Constitution. They're so flexible and can be translated in many different ways depending on the reader's interpretation. And although some people take the Bible one way, others read it another. There's no real concrete way of understanding these sorts of things.

Also, in spite of my outward brutish and womanizing appearance, I'm quite feminist and I'm repulsed by religions and cultures that degrade women and strip them of their rights. (Hi, Islam [and to a certain extent most Abrahamic monotheistic religions<but mostly Islam{QUATERNARY BRACKETS}>])

Finally, I don't think a benevolent all-powerful God would give his creations free will. If I was a God (and, I'm sure, at heart, a good majority of humans in general) I wouldn't let them think freely, lest they overthrow me. Then again, if God's all-powerful and one tries to defy him, he'd be liable to kick the guy's ass, right? Basically there's no real sign that a deity exists.

Oh and if we're all created in his image he must either A. look really ****ed up or B. screwed us out of omnipotence.
  #125  
Old August 11, 2011, 05:51:36 PM
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I'm atheist. I believe that there is no higher power. Also, it does not mean I hate all other religions, in fact quite the opposite. I came to this decision in my teen years, and I believe that my mind was just not made for the thought of a higher power, as I tend to think more rationally with logic and reason.

my personal opinion is that religion was based as a means to an end. ( "Meaning of Life")
The less people have to question the easier life is, but there are a lot of people (such as myself) who enjoy questioning just about everything.

One last point: I know this is a touchy subject with a lot of people, and I apologize if I come across as brash. It's just my opinion and I can sometimes come across as a jerk. My intentions are not to harass, but to inform.
  #126  
Old August 12, 2011, 09:00:50 AM
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No offense but the OP was horrible. Your reasons for being Baptist are backed up by nothing except your faith. Why yes they are good reasons in your book, but most people who aren't Christian wouldn't understand why you believe in God. There is no concrete evidence that the Bible exists. The only reason I can fathom that you would believe in God is if you were born into a family that was religious, or if you decided to become religious on your own.

This is exactly why I hate debates like this because the non-religious people are always going to win. There is no friggin' concrete evidence that someone should believe in God. Debates about Religion never end well anyway. They usually are closed/deleted within 15 pages of "You should believe in God!/No I shouldn't" and the like. I expect this to end in the same way. I am a very religious Christian-Catholic, and this is just my opinion on the matter.
  #127  
Old August 12, 2011, 09:07:20 AM
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There is no concrete evidence that the Bible exists.
There is a bible right next to me. I'm pretty sure that means it exists.


As for the rest of your post, that's the entire definition of faith.


And don't say anything like "This is exactly why I hate debates like this because the non-religious people are always going to win". you only make yourself look like an arrogant jerk, to be blunt.
  #128  
Old August 12, 2011, 09:21:08 AM
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There is a bible right next to me. I'm pretty sure that means it exists.
Well I meant that there is no evidence that the writings in the Bible is true.
As for the rest of your post, that's the entire definition of faith.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. How is it the definition of faith? Faith is believing something without seeing it. I'm pretty sure I didn't mention that anywhere.
And don't say anything like "This is exactly why I hate debates like this because the non-religious people are always going to win". you only make yourself look like an arrogant jerk, to be blunt.
They always do. And I'm an arrogant jerk? Do you have any evidence supporting that? I think not. Just because my post was offensive to you does not mean that I'm a jerk. What exactly makes me seem arrogant? Your responses to my post makes you look arrogant to my standards. But I would've respected you and not have posted that if you hadn't.
I am Christian. I just have a different outlook on things, and that does not give you the right to "bluntly" call me an "arrogant jerk". Didn't your parents teach you to think before you go around calling people names? I could go around calling you a *****, but I would gain nothing from doing so except maybe the selfish satisfaction that I did.
  #129  
Old August 12, 2011, 09:28:51 AM
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Well, its true: usually in debate the key is evidence, and faith is often defined as something believed in spite of the non-existence thereof.

[Also my post was deleted... ]

Last edited by FreezeWarp; August 12, 2011 at 09:29:17 AM.
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Old August 12, 2011, 09:29:10 AM
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...


Quote:
No offense but the OP was horrible
How about I rest my case now and be done with it.
  #131  
Old August 12, 2011, 09:36:22 AM
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How about I rest my case now and be done with it.
Well that's my opinion. It is a debate... Right? I can pretty much say whatever I want to say. It's my opinion. W/e floats your boat. It would be probably the best to rest your case for your sake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreezeWarp
Well, its true: usually in debate the key is evidence, and faith is often defined as something believed in spite of the non-existence thereof.
This guy knows what I'm talking about. It has been proven that some events that occured in the past are documented in the Bible, but there is no concrete proof which proves everything stated in the Bibile is true.
  #132  
Old August 12, 2011, 09:38:01 AM
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Well, its interesting, she has an unbelievable point that I have come to... loathe, for lack of less Star Wars-soundy word, over time. Simply put: the number of Christians who believe in the Holy Trinity (and the finer details of the Bible) for reasons other than the family they were born into is shrinking, and at quite the pace. Moreover, I would have the hardest time trying to find a person who neither clings to religion (for fear of death, etc.) nor believes in it because they find truth in it.

The end result is the practise of Christianity seems to no longer exist for reasons I myself would consider (for whatever reason) to be pure, except for a few rare individuals (I mean, at least compared to the greater norm).

[Full Disclosure: Whatever interest I have in religion is bourne out of sociology. I am myself areligious - I have little interest today in the debate, practise, or even concept of religion, at least on a personal level.]
  #133  
Old August 12, 2011, 09:46:21 AM
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There is no concrete evidence that the Bible exists.
I don't want to contest any of your other statements since I agree for the most part, but I do want to point out that many holy structures mentioned in Scripture have been unearthed and discovered by archaeologists and historians, so some events of the Bible may have occurred at some point
  #134  
Old August 12, 2011, 09:47:30 AM
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Well, its interesting, she has an unbelievable point that I have come to... loathe, for lack of less Star Wars-soundy word, over time. Simply put: the number of Christians who believe in the Holy Trinity (and the finer details of the Bible) for reasons other than the family they were born into is shrinking, and at quite the pace. Moreover, I would have the hardest time trying to find a person who neither clings to religion (for fear of death, etc.) nor believes in it because they find truth in it.
She? I have a name you know. I'm not some unknowlegible n00b just because I just joined. Unbelievable point..? The number of Christians are shrinking as people these days are losing their imagination and feel the need to observe science as the answer to everything.

Quote:
The end result is the practise of Christianity seems to no longer exist for reasons I myself would consider (for whatever reason) to be pure, except for a few rare individuals (I mean, at least compared to the greater norm).
The practice of Christianity will always exist, as there will always be someone out in the world who believes in God with their whole heart.

Quote:
[Full Disclosure: Whatever interest I have in religion is bourne out of sociology. I am myself areligious - I have little interest today in the debate, practise, or even concept of religion, at least on a personal level.]
Well sociology isn't always going to be right... If you have little interest for debating, then why are you debating in this thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteTheIronMan
I don't want to contest any of your other statements since I agree for the most part, but I do want to point out that many holy structures mentioned in Scripture have been unearthed and discovered by archaeologists and historians, so some events of the Bible may have occurred at some point
I have stated that before in a more generalized statement, but is there anything that totally proves that everything in the Bible is true?

And for any of you thinking that I'm some atheist or whatever, I have already said that I'm Catholic. It's just my opinion on the point...

Last edited by Elaine; August 12, 2011 at 09:50:04 AM.
  #135  
Old August 12, 2011, 09:48:33 AM
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I don't want to contest any of your other statements since I agree for the most part, but I do want to point out that many holy structures mentioned in Scripture have been unearthed and discovered by archaeologists and historians, so some events of the Bible may have occurred at some point
Indeed, though the same seems to go for most historical religious-based texts. And, some have this annoying tendency to be hoaxes...
  #136  
Old August 12, 2011, 09:50:32 AM
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Indeed, though the same seems to go for most historical religious-based texts. And, some have this annoying tendency to be hoaxes...
Scientology? What was the historical architecture in Scientology? The plane that dropped off all those people into the volcano? The volcano?
  #137  
Old August 12, 2011, 09:57:40 AM
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She? I have a name you know. I'm not some unknowlegible n00b just because I just joined. Unbelievable point..? The number of Christians are shrinking as people these days are losing their imagination and feel the need to observe science as the answer to everything.
*chuckles* My apologies, then, Elaine. I have this thing with calling people by their names...

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The practice of Christianity will always exist, as there will always be someone out in the world who believes in God with their whole heart.
Dunno, 2000 years seems a bit paltry compared to the 5.5 billion the Earth has left.

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Originally Posted by Elaine View Post
Well sociology isn't always going to be right... If you have little interest for debating, then why are you debating in this thread?
It's not personal, if nothing else. Though, I'm not sure debating why I'm debating is the most worth-while affair...

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Originally Posted by Elaine View Post
She? I have a name you know. I'm not some unknowlegible n00b just because I just joined. Unbelievable point..? The number of Christians are shrinking as people these days are losing their imagination and feel the need to observe science as the answer to everything.
*chuckles* My apologies, then, Elaine. I have this thing with calling people by their names...

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Originally Posted by Elaine View Post
The practice of Christianity will always exist, as there will always be someone out in the world who believes in God with their whole heart.
Dunno, 2000 years seems a bit paltry compared to the 5.5 billion the Earth has left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elaine View Post
Well sociology isn't always going to be right... If you have little interest for debating, then why are you debating in this thread?
It's not personal, if nothing else. Though, I'm not sure debating why I'm debating is the most worth-while affair...

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Originally Posted by LiteTheIronMan View Post
Scientology? What was the historical architecture in Scientology? The plane that dropped off all those people into the volcano? The volcano?
Scientology's existence is hard to define as a religion, at least a traditional one. It's not historical at any rate (not in the intended sense).

(I had briefly considered making mention of it and Mormonism, the latter which is very distinct from the former but has comparatively recent origins, but... well, it seemed like a moot point.)

Last edited by LiteTheIronMan; August 12, 2011 at 09:58:21 AM. Reason: merge your ****
  #138  
Old August 12, 2011, 09:58:51 AM
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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp
Dunno, 2000 years seems a bit paltry compared to the 5.5 billion the Earth has left
Whoever said the world would end in 5.5 billion years? The sun could explode tomorrow for all we know. What if in 2 years everyone becomes Christian? That's highly unlikely as there will always be atheist/whatever not believing in God. Same goes for Christians.
  #139  
Old August 12, 2011, 10:05:24 AM
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Whoever said the world would end in 5.5 billion years? The sun could explode tomorrow for all we know.
Scientists have measured the lifespan of hundreds, maybe thousands, of stars like ours and have taken years of study to determine the lifespan of the sun.


though I heard elsewhere the sun had 50 billion years left... it was an outdated book though.
  #140  
Old August 12, 2011, 10:08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Jardvcxz
Scientists have measured the lifespan of hundreds, maybe thousands, of stars like ours and have taken years of study to determine the lifespan of the sun.


though I heard elsewhere the sun had 50 billion years left... it was an outdated book though.
But does that really guarantee that the Sun will survive that long? You can't always trust science.

Since we are getting a bit off-topic, faith is a powerful thing. Humans see what they want to see.
  #141  
Old August 12, 2011, 10:17:47 AM
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So you don't trust the credibility of religion, or the credibility of science... I don't know what to tell you anymore.
  #142  
Old August 12, 2011, 04:40:38 PM
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So you don't trust the credibility of religion, or the credibility of science... I don't know what to tell you anymore.

My reaction...

Nothing is truly credible unless you believe in it. And that depends on whatever person. Religion? Be more specific. Like Hindu religion or Buddhist religion?
  #143  
Old August 12, 2011, 05:13:17 PM
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I think a Jeff Winger quote is pretty applicable for me, here.

"For me, religion is like Paul Rudd. I see the appeal, and I would never take it away from anybody, but I would also never stand in line for it."
  #144  
Old August 13, 2011, 01:25:34 AM
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But does that really guarantee that the Sun will survive that long? You can't always trust science.

No, it doesn't. Nothing guarantees anything, but that's a moot point. The Earth could certainly get blown up by a comet next month, but it's unlikely enough - And unpreventable enough - That there's no point in arguing semantics based off of that. The BEST (And in fact only) way to estimate things that we have is based off of past events, and We've made it a few Billion years as a planet, and a few tens of millions without a major extinction event. Not much compared to 5-ish billion before the sun expands and fries us all, but still several orders of magnitude larger than the piddly 2000 that Christianity offers up in history.
  #145  
Old August 13, 2011, 04:52:40 AM
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My reaction...

Nothing is truly credible unless you believe in it. And that depends on whatever person. Religion? Be more specific. Like Hindu religion or Buddhist religion?
I'm saying it now and getting it out of the way: You are the most idiotic person I've ever seen come to this debate froum.


Better yet:


Last edited by Jaredvcxz; August 13, 2011 at 04:55:54 AM.
  #146  
Old August 13, 2011, 05:58:39 PM
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@Jaredxvcz: I was just teasing... Take a chill pill. It's a debate. What did you think you were getting into? Just because I have different opinions than yours, and I didn't happen to understand what you meant does not make me an "idiotic person" or an "arrogant jerk". I have yet to call you any degrading names, yet I'm the troll? Oh yes being called an idiotic person and an arrogant jerk is trolling, no?

Just chill. If you can't take any constructive criticism, you should stay clear of the debate section. It's for debates not pointing out trolls or whatever. If you really want to call me a troll, you could just VM/PM about it and I could say sorry or whatever. You don't need to spam up a thread to say, "Obvious troll is obvious!" Calm the heck down and PM what you want to say so we can resolve this issue if you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starshell
No, it doesn't. Nothing guarantees anything, but that's a moot point. The Earth could certainly get blown up by a comet next month, but it's unlikely enough - And unpreventable enough - That there's no point in arguing semantics based off of that. The BEST (And in fact only) way to estimate things that we have is based off of past events, and We've made it a few Billion years as a planet, and a few tens of millions without a major extinction event. Not much compared to 5-ish billion before the sun expands and fries us all, but still several orders of magnitude larger than the piddly 2000 that Christianity offers up in history.
Hmm... Well you are quite correct in the last sentence, but there weren't many atheist in the olden time. Atheism's big break happened in the 19th-21st Century, when people started to disagree with Christianity.
  #147  
Old August 14, 2011, 09:39:15 PM
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@Jaredxvcz:
Hmm... Well you are quite correct in the last sentence, but there weren't many atheist in the olden time.
I'd disagree - In fact, I'd argue that in the 4.9997 billion or so years before humans developed, there were nothing BUT atheists on earth - I see no evidence for religious beliefs in lower-order animals.
  #148  
Old August 16, 2011, 11:42:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Elaine View Post
@Jaredxvcz: I was just teasing... Take a chill pill. It's a debate. What did you think you were getting into? Just because I have different opinions than yours, and I didn't happen to understand what you meant does not make me an "idiotic person" or an "arrogant jerk". I have yet to call you any degrading names, yet I'm the troll? Oh yes being called an idiotic person and an arrogant jerk is trolling, no?

Just chill. If you can't take any constructive criticism, you should stay clear of the debate section. It's for debates not pointing out trolls or whatever. If you really want to call me a troll, you could just VM/PM about it and I could say sorry or whatever. You don't need to spam up a thread to say, "Obvious troll is obvious!" Calm the heck down and PM what you want to say so we can resolve this issue if you want.

Hmm... Well you are quite correct in the last sentence, but there weren't many atheist in the olden time. Atheism's big break happened in the 19th-21st Century, when people started to disagree with Christianity.

Atheism isn't just about disagreeing with Christianity (or any other religion I might add), it's about accepting that maybe we just exist. The reason Christianity gets hit so hard by atheists is because most people don't know how to keep their religion discussions peaceful. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I am going to Hell, a few times by my own mother even (not that I don't get along with her). I am more than willing to discuss it with someone, but once things get heated, I'm outta there.

Also, I screwed up the quote somehow.

Last edited by Kaveman; August 16, 2011 at 11:45:19 AM.
  #149  
Old August 16, 2011, 11:59:30 AM
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Also, in spite of my outward brutish and womanizing appearance, I'm quite feminist and I'm repulsed by religions and cultures that degrade women and strip them of their rights. (Hi, Islam [and to a certain extent most Abrahamic monotheistic religions<but mostly Islam{QUATERNARY BRACKETS}>])
Can you please elaborate on this? I'm interested to see why you think Islam and most Abrahamic religions don't dignify and respect women.
  #150  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:05:17 PM
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Atheism isn't just about disagreeing with Christianity (or any other religion I might add), it's about accepting that maybe we just exist. The reason Christianity gets hit so hard by atheists is because most people don't know how to keep their religion discussions peaceful. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I am going to Hell, a few times by my own mother even (not that I don't get along with her). I am more than willing to discuss it with someone, but once things get heated, I'm outta there.

Also, I screwed up the quote somehow.
Atheism is quite a strange subject. I assume there are many different kinds of Atheist. The extremists are the one's who will go to any measure to remove "God" from any political text. It's like the extremists of Islam I suppose. To a lesser extent of course.

@Starshell: Well your post certainly made me contradict my earlier opinion. Do we have any proof that they were all Atheists? Do we have any proof they were all Christians? Nope. There were probably many different kinds of religions before record, just like now. History does indeed repeat itself. ^^
  #151  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:07:04 PM
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Can you please elaborate on this? I'm interested to see why you think Islam and most Abrahamic religions don't dignify and respect women.
I don't think, I know. My father's Muslim. And all his pals are Muslim.

Last edited by LiteTheIronMan; August 16, 2011 at 12:07:40 PM. Reason: I could elaborate but it'd divulge into personal aspects of my life and then I'd be accused of bias.
  #152  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:11:44 PM
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Can you please elaborate on this? I'm interested to see why you think Islam and most Abrahamic religions don't dignify and respect women.
He probably thinks that way as Islam and other such religions require women to cover almost every part of their body. Probably to respect the human body, unlike most other countries do. It can be quite sexist depending on the way you look at it.
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Old August 16, 2011, 12:13:45 PM
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Although you, Elaine, are right about the fact that proving the existence of God is hard due to the lack of materialized evidences, yet you are summarizing the whole debate as 'Science vs. Christianity'.

First of all, I believe that no matter what your religion is, if you have faith, then you believe in God. With all my respect and love to Christianity, you do not need to cancel out the importance of other religions and narrow the whole existence of faith to Christianity only. In fact, if we believe that there were religions sent before Christianity and that all Abrahamic religions and ones that were sent by God complete each other, then we can agree that religion was able to cover that 5.5 billion years of history that it is assumed not to be covered by religion.

As for Atheism, it definitely existed since the ancient times, otherwise why would God be sending religions in the first place.
  #154  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:13:46 PM
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He probably thinks that way as Islam and other such religions require women to cover almost every part of their body. Probably to respect the human body, unlike most other countries do. It can be quite sexist depending on the way you look at it.
It's more based on my personal experiences with the religions and sexism within various sects as well as me reading through texts like the Qu'ran and the Bible and coming to the conclusion that I didn't like what I was reading.
  #155  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:17:56 PM
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It's more based on my personal experiences with the religions and sexism within various sects as well as me reading through texts like the Qu'ran and the Bible and coming to the conclusion that I didn't like what I was reading.
I wonder how much you were able to understand the Qu'ran though, since it is even hard for an Arab to understand it well as it uses ancient Arabic. Plus, you are still not elaborating on how it is sexist. Explain your point of view further.

Last edited by The Spirit of Time; August 16, 2011 at 12:18:29 PM.
  #156  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:22:18 PM
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I wonder how much you were able to understand the Qu'ran though, since it is even hard for an Arab to understand it well as it uses ancient Arabic. Plus, you are still not elaborating on how it is sexist. Explain your point of view further.
I don't want to explain as I'd be going into stuff that would make it seem like I have a personal bias as opposed to a factual argument, therefore for the sake of my argument I will refuse to cite specific passages from religious texts that I find sexist and anti-feminist.
  #157  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:25:59 PM
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He probably thinks that way as Islam and other such religions require women to cover almost every part of their body. Probably to respect the human body, unlike most other countries do. It can be quite sexist depending on the way you look at it.
If anything, the requirement for women to cover their bodies is a way to protect them from strangers; instead of attracting men on the street, which may lead to illegal sex or rape, the woman's beauty is considered a privilege for her spouse as well as for her close relations (such as her brothers, parents, uncles and parents-in-law; in other words, people who she can't marry). I honestly don't see any issue with that.

Last edited by Shadow; August 16, 2011 at 12:31:38 PM.
  #158  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:27:26 PM
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Atheism is quite a strange subject. I assume there are many different kinds of Atheist. The extremists are the one's who will go to any measure to remove "God" from any political text. It's like the extremists of Islam I suppose. To a lesser extent of course.
Well, there are extremists of all religions, really. As for the political text, I'm not quite sure if you mean politics, but I have to agree that religion has no place there. Especially in a country as diversified as ours.

Last edited by Shadow; August 16, 2011 at 12:29:40 PM.
  #159  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:27:41 PM
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I don't want to explain as I'd be going into stuff that would make it seem like I have a personal bias as opposed to a factual argument, therefore for the sake of my argument I will refuse to cite specific passages from religious texts that I find sexist and anti-feminist.
Trust me, I don't think of you as biased. But if you don't show exactly what you mean then we won't be able to change each other's point of view. Either one of us might have understood wrong and now believes in a wrong way. List the texts and we can at least explain it.
  #160  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:30:29 PM
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Although you, Elaine, are right about the fact that proving the existence of God is hard due to the lack of materialized evidences, yet you are summarizing the whole debate as 'Science vs. Christianity'.
Who ever said I summarized it as Religion vs. Science?

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First of all, I believe that no matter what your religion is, if you have faith, then you believe in God. With all my respect and love to Christianity, you do not need to cancel out the importance of other religions and narrow the whole existence of faith to Christianity only. In fact, if we believe that there were religions sent before Christianity and that all Abrahamic religions and ones that were sent by God complete each other, then we can agree that religion was able to cover that 5.5 billion years of history that it is assumed not to be covered by religion.
I personally believe that all religions are right in some ways. For all we petty humans know, our religions may destine the layout of Heaven/Hell and pave the way of our beliefs. Humans see what they want to see. So perhaps there is like a sign on the way to Heaven pointing to which way your Religion goes when you die. It is an interesting theory, I'll admit. But how would that apply to Atheist? Well maybe Atheist are just reincarnated as another being on earth. Who knows?

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As for Atheism, it definitely existed since the ancient times, otherwise why would God be sending religions in the first place.
'Kay then Captain Obvious. I'm pretty sure God doesn't exactly "send" religions. We, as humans, created all these different religions. Not God. God may be omnipotent and omniscient, but our destinys can always be changed. And as such, take one stray step, and your life can either be paved into a life-long happiness or eternal despair. Our choices change a lot more than we think.
  #161  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:32:17 PM
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If anything, the requirement for women to cover their bodies is a way to protect them from strangers; instead of attracting men on the street, which may lead to illegal sex or rape, the woman's beauty is considered a privilege for her spouse as well as for her close relations (such as her brothers, parents, uncles and parents-in-law; in other words, people who she can't marry). I honestly don't see any issue with that.
I heard my half-sister (raised Muslim by my father and stepmother) tell a woman she should be ashamed for wearing a dress.

Last edited by LiteTheIronMan; August 16, 2011 at 12:33:46 PM. Reason: It's not a means of protection at all, it's a cultural degradation
  #162  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:40:21 PM
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I heard my half-sister (raised Muslim by my father and stepmother) tell a woman she should be ashamed for wearing a dress.
What you are telling me right now is what your sister said, not the holy text though. Nevertheless, what she said is based on a fact that a lady has to cover certain parts of her body. Now if a dress, or any kind of cloth, doesn't cover these certain parts, then better not to be worn. However, if a dress was worn and the parts we covered, then there is no problem in it.

I want to point out though that women before found wearing short cloths a shame. Even now, old women in U.S.A and Europe find it a shame to wear short clothes or any that would show a lot of her body. I think your opinion is not only against once certain religion, but it against how the old used to think and many people still think the same way. However, you can't deny that by women wearing more covering clothes, raping accidents were less common.

EDIT:
As for what you said Elaine, I strongly disagree with you. Humans make mistakes, and if it is humans that created all religions, then these religions can have mistakes which leads to the belief that religious people are following wrong paths, thus weakening your own religions. Of course, with all those religions, there would be certain ones that were created by humans and so flaws can be pointed out. However, there are definitely religions out of the list that were properly taught to humans by God, giving these religions a more stable core.

Regarding the last part of your post, what I usually think of is that despite God being too strong, yet he is also too generous and kind to allow us to create our own destinies.

Last edited by The Spirit of Time; August 16, 2011 at 12:48:42 PM.
  #163  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:45:51 PM
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What you are telling me right now is what your sister said, not the holy text though. Nevertheless, what she said is based on a fact that a lady has to cover certain parts of her body. Now if a dress, or any kind of cloth, doesn't cover these certain parts, then better not to be worn. However, if a dress was worn and the parts we covered, then there is no problem in it.

I want to point out though that women before found wearing short cloths a shame. Even now, old women in U.S.A and Europe find it a shame to wear short clothes or any that would show a lot of her body. I think your opinion is not only against once certain religion, but it against how the old used to think and many people still think the same way. However, you can't deny that by women wearing more covering clothes, raping accidents were less common.
In bold are my problems with your statements. At the root of it all, this mindset is caused by a religious motivation based on what the majority of people were taught as a child by their parents, who were most likely very devout followers of an Abrahamic monotheistic religion (in the US, Christianity, most predominantly.) Furthermore, to imply that women are targets of sexual crimes simply because they're wearing revealing clothing proves my point that a sexist motivation is behind the wearing of covering clothing.
  #164  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:49:30 PM
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Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
What you are telling me right now is what your sister said, not the holy text though. Nevertheless, what she said is based on a fact that a lady has to cover certain parts of her body. Now if a dress, or any kind of cloth, doesn't cover these certain parts, then better not to be worn. However, if a dress was worn and the parts we covered, then there is no problem in it.

I want to point out though that women before found wearing short cloths a shame. Even now, old women in U.S.A and Europe find it a shame to wear short clothes or any that would show a lot of her body. I think your opinion is not only against once certain religion, but it against how the old used to think and many people still think the same way. However, you can't deny that by women wearing more covering clothes, raping accidents were less common.
I'm a woman, and I have to say that a lot of young women feel pressured to wear "revealing" clothing to feel loved. Most teenage boys are obsessed with sex, and don't want to have romantic dinners and what-not. I really envy the olden days where there were chivalrous young people with dreams and crap. Well you can't turn back the hands of time.

Most statistics say that young women nowadays are more likely to die before their male counterparts with the pressure of trying to be beautiful, raising children, and working. It's hard for young girls to fit in these days. I'm not saying guys don't have it bad, but I'm obviously biased on this subject.

Last edited by Elaine; August 16, 2011 at 01:00:07 PM.
  #165  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:54:02 PM
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In bold are my problems with your statements. At the root of it all, this mindset is caused by a religious motivation based on what the majority of people were taught as a child by their parents, who were most likely very devout followers of an Abrahamic monotheistic religion (in the US, Christianity, most predominantly.) Furthermore, to imply that women are targets of sexual crimes simply because they're wearing revealing clothing proves my point that a sexist motivation is behind the wearing of covering clothing.
Well, it is by human nature that men get attracted to women. No one nor any religion can deny that. It was known even in the ancient times. If we want to discuss the matter of covering certain parts of a woman's body then it is undeniable that this has lead to a decrease in sex crimes. Therefore, the rights and safety of the woman were protected. Furthermore, the possibility of giving birth to a child who doesn't know his father is also less. This problem has become quite common, leading to families broken apart. This issue solves both individual and social problems.

EDIT: Elaine, I am not against the olden days.

Last edited by The Spirit of Time; August 16, 2011 at 12:55:15 PM.
  #166  
Old August 16, 2011, 12:57:43 PM
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Well, it is by human nature that men get attracted to women. No one nor any religion can deny that. It was known even in the ancient times. If we want to discuss the matter of covering certain parts of a woman's body then it is undeniable that this has lead to a decrease in sex crimes. Therefore, the rights and safety of the woman were protected. Furthermore, the possibility of giving birth to a child who doesn't know his father is also less. This problem has become quite common, leading to families broken apart. This issue solves both individual and social problems.
I'm not saying that rape is wrong. I'm saying that blaming the rape on the woman showing off her body is wrong.
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Old August 16, 2011, 12:59:51 PM
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I'm not saying that rape is wrong. I'm saying that blaming the rape on the woman showing off her body is wrong.
But it is proven than as a lady shows more, she will attract more, causing the chance to get raped to be more.
  #168  
Old August 16, 2011, 01:03:09 PM
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But it is proven than as a lady shows more, she will attract more, causing the chance to get raped to be more.
That's what I find sexist and degrading of women. This statement.

Where is it proven that an attractive women has to flash her breasts to attract? The modestly dressed woman can't be more beautiful or attractive? Furthermore, can't the modestly dressed woman be more liable to have a sexual crime committed against her? Or just as likely? There's no REAL statistic or proof. It's just the assumption one has in a sexually driven society.
  #169  
Old August 16, 2011, 01:04:43 PM
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But it is proven than as a lady shows more, she will attract more, causing the chance to get raped to be more.
Well that's her decision to show more off her body. But the men shouldn't be prowling around looking for girls to rape. They're both wrong. If only the world would gain a little common sense, we wouldn't have to debate this stuff.
  #170  
Old August 16, 2011, 01:08:49 PM
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Well that's her decision to show more off her body. But the men shouldn't be prowling around looking for girls to rape. They're both wrong. If only the world would gain a little common sense, we wouldn't have to debate this stuff.
Of course they are both wrong. I am not saying that it is alright for men to do so, but I am arguing the not wearing flashy things can be a good way to make accidents less possible. No Lite, it is not about being beautiful or not, it is about what would drive a mad man to rape a girl.
  #171  
Old August 16, 2011, 01:10:33 PM
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Of course they are both wrong. I am not saying that it is alright for men to do so, but I am arguing the not wearing flashy things can be a good way to make accidents less possible. No Lite, it is not about being beautiful or not, it is about what would drive a mad man to rape a girl.
My problem with this and the rest of religiously motivated society is that it teaches "don't get raped" instead of "don't rape"- putting the blame and shame on the victim, the woman, instead of preventing the man.
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Old August 16, 2011, 01:13:33 PM
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But what about the cases where the women rape the men? Is it because the men wear skanky clothing? I seriously doubt it. Most people think that it's only men who rape women, but they don't seem to realize that women could rape men. It's a rare case, but sometimes it happens.
  #173  
Old August 16, 2011, 01:14:07 PM
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My problem with this and the rest of religiously motivated society is that it teaches "don't get raped" instead of "don't rape"- putting the blame and shame on the victim, the woman, instead of preventing the man.
I didn't say that. I was just discussing the woman's part and how we can help her. No one is blaming her. In terms of the man's, of course he is the one to be blamed which is why you find a lot of serious punishments to any rapist.

EDIT: @Elaine: Then now we are discussing how low our society has become due to certain reasons, something unrelated to religion. Anyway, I have to go take a bath. I traveled across two different countries today for hours and I am exhausted. I might come back to continue the discussion, if there is still one.

Last edited by The Spirit of Time; August 16, 2011 at 01:17:38 PM.
  #174  
Old August 16, 2011, 01:17:56 PM
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But what about the cases where the women rape the men? Is it because the men wear skanky clothing? I seriously doubt it. Most people think that it's only men who rape women, but they don't seem to realize that women could rape men. It's a rare case, but sometimes it happens.
I actually got a kick out of this because it's true and the only reason people never think about it is because we live in a society predominantly governed by men, so I do admit and agree that this circumstance is plausible
  #175  
Old August 16, 2011, 01:25:43 PM
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I didn't say that. I was just discussing the woman's part and how we can help her. No one is blaming her. In terms of the man's, of course he is the one to be blamed which is why you find a lot of serious punishments to any rapist.

EDIT: @Elaine: Then now we are discussing how low our society has become due to certain reasons, something unrelated to religion. Anyway, I have to go take a bath. I traveled across two different countries today for hours and I am exhausted. I might come back to continue the discussion, if there is still one.
Oh yes and how did we happen to get this off-topic? Certainly not me. TMI dude. Saying you need to take a bath puts a bad image in my head, but that's beside the point. The last sentence made me giggle.

Well this debate is pretty much summed up. Unless someone brings something new to the table...
  #176  
Old August 16, 2011, 01:26:36 PM
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In bold are my problems with your statements. At the root of it all, this mindset is caused by a religious motivation based on what the majority of people were taught as a child by their parents, who were most likely very devout followers of an Abrahamic monotheistic religion (in the US, Christianity, most predominantly.) Furthermore, to imply that women are targets of sexual crimes simply because they're wearing revealing clothing proves my point that a sexist motivation is behind the wearing of covering clothing.
In this particular situation, I don't understand what's the problem with the sexist motivation you're talking about. If you're a married woman, why would you want to seduce other men? It would be disrespectful to your spouse and will ultimately result in family break-downs. If an action proves to be effective in reducing social problems without being consequential on the person doing it, then it only makes sense to do it.

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I'm a woman, and I have to say that a lot of young women feel pressured to wear "revealing" clothing to feel loved. Most teenage boys are obsessed with sex, and don't want to have romantic dinners and what-not. I really envy the olden days where there were chivalrous young people with dreams and crap. Well you can't turn back the hands of time.

Most statistics say that young women nowadays are more likely to die before their male counterparts with the pressure of being beautiful, raising children, and working. It's hard for young girls to fit in these days. I'm not saying guys don't have it bad, but I'm obviously biased on this subject.
This post gives another advantage of wearing covering clothing or, at least, avoiding provocative clothing. I must say, though, that many people are under the misconception that Muslim women don't take care of their appearance. This has no basis of reality, since Islam encourages women to attract their spouses and always look beautiful when around them. Moreover, many Muslim women are allowed to wear colourful clothes (not just a veil) when outside, which is perfectly acceptable as long as it is not revealing.

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I'm not saying that rape is wrong. I'm saying that blaming the rape on the woman showing off her body is wrong.
There's no denying that part of the blame goes to the woman.

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Originally Posted by LiteTheIronMan View Post
That's what I find sexist and degrading of women. This statement.

Where is it proven that an attractive women has to flash her breasts to attract? The modestly dressed woman can't be more beautiful or attractive? Furthermore, can't the modestly dressed woman be more liable to have a sexual crime committed against her? Or just as likely? There's no REAL statistic or proof. It's just the assumption one has in a sexually driven society.
It's not an absolute must for a women to reveal her body in order to be considered beautiful. However, denying that wearing provocative clothing seduces men is illogical; if society today has become sexually-driven, then it only makes sense for people to be more cautious about it. In most cases, men will find a woman revealing her body more 'sexy' than a woman wearing a veil and a scarf these days, which is a sad truth. I understand that it's not always the woman's fault, but as a responsible human being perhaps she has to take some measures in order to protect herself.

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Originally Posted by LiteTheIronMan View Post
My problem with this and the rest of religiously motivated society is that it teaches "don't get raped" instead of "don't rape"- putting the blame and shame on the victim, the woman, instead of preventing the man.
Trust me, there are EXTREMELY serious consequences imposed on any rapist, under any circumstance.
  #177  
Old August 16, 2011, 01:37:05 PM
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There's no denying that part of the blame goes to the woman.

Unless the woman was performing the rape? No blame should be put on the woman.

It's not an absolute must for a women to reveal her body in order to be considered beautiful. However, denying that wearing provocative clothing seduces men is illogical; if society today has become sexually-driven, then it only makes sense for people to be more cautious about it. In most cases, men will find a woman revealing her body more 'sexy' than a woman wearing a veil and a scarf these days, which is a sad truth. I understand that it's not always the woman's fault, but as a responsible human being perhaps she has to take some measures in order to protect herself.

As Elaine has mentioned, a typical woman in a culture that judges her based on her looks will attempt to look more attractive. This statement completely ignores the perversity of societal norms. It has to be understood from the women's point of view as well.

Trust me, there are EXTREMELY serious consequences imposed on any rapist, under any circumstance.

I'm not denying that.
  #178  
Old August 16, 2011, 01:51:31 PM
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There's no denying that part of the blame goes to the woman.

Unless the woman was performing the rape? No blame should be put on the woman.

It's not an absolute must for a women to reveal her body in order to be considered beautiful. However, denying that wearing provocative clothing seduces men is illogical; if society today has become sexually-driven, then it only makes sense for people to be more cautious about it. In most cases, men will find a woman revealing her body more 'sexy' than a woman wearing a veil and a scarf these days, which is a sad truth. I understand that it's not always the woman's fault, but as a responsible human being perhaps she has to take some measures in order to protect herself.

As Elaine has mentioned, a typical woman in a culture that judges her based on her looks will attempt to look more attractive. This statement completely ignores the perversity of societal norms. It has to be understood from the women's point of view as well.
1- If a woman was walking in the middle of an empty street (a wrong action) and then a drunk driver suddenly appears and runs her over, is it correct to say that the woman cannot get the blame because she didn't know what was going to happen? If the action that she's originally doing is wrong, you cannot justify it after a bigger mistake has taken place because of the original one.

2- As I have numerously said, why do you want to look good in front of others when you are married? As for single ladies, it's still not right to justify a mistake because the society around you has become wrong; many of the women around me are Muslim, and although they never wore provocative clothing, they were still able to get married, have kids and enjoy their lives.

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But what about the cases where the women rape the men? Is it because the men wear skanky clothing? I seriously doubt it. Most people think that it's only men who rape women, but they don't seem to realize that women could rape men. It's a rare case, but sometimes it happens.
In all honesty, I have no knowledge of such cases (even though they may exist), and since I don't like to debate about something I don't know, I cannot give a reply.

P.S: Since it's 2:00 AM over here, I need to go sleep now. I'll resume this debate tomorrow if anyone replies over here.

Last edited by Shadow; August 16, 2011 at 02:00:40 PM.
  #179  
Old August 16, 2011, 03:25:13 PM
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Atheism isn't just about disagreeing with Christianity (or any other religion I might add), it's about accepting that maybe we just exist. The reason Christianity gets hit so hard by atheists is because most people don't know how to keep their religion discussions peaceful. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I am going to Hell, a few times by my own mother even (not that I don't get along with her). I am more than willing to discuss it with someone, but once things get heated, I'm outta there.
You neglect that a major reason people hate any religion is because if there's any truth to it, it brings into question their shear existence.

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Atheism is quite a strange subject. I assume there are many different kinds of Atheist. The extremists are the one's who will go to any measure to remove "God" from any political text. It's like the extremists of Islam I suppose. To a lesser extent of course.
The type of atheism you describe isn't extremism, its... "sourism", you might say. It's the idea that people are of a weaker being for believing theism, therefor you must crush them.

Or, alternatively, its just being a prick. One of the two at any rate.

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First of all, I believe that no matter what your religion is, if you have faith, then you believe in God. With all my respect and love to Christianity, you do not need to cancel out the importance of other religions and narrow the whole existence of faith to Christianity only. In fact, if we believe that there were religions sent before Christianity and that all Abrahamic religions and ones that were sent by God complete each other, then we can agree that religion was able to cover that 5.5 billion years of history that it is assumed not to be covered by religion.
You completely ignore polytheistic religions, where "God" does not exist but multiple gods do.

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As for Atheism, it definitely existed since the ancient times, otherwise why would God be sending religions in the first place.
...The scientific explanation: people only recently required theism because they only recently started to question their existence. I am not researched so I could not defend this, but as far as I know few beings (if any) outside of humanity can so much as ponder why they exist, or even death (at the same early age most humans do).

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I want to point out though that women before found wearing short cloths a shame. Even now, old women in U.S.A and Europe find it a shame to wear short clothes or any that would show a lot of her body. I think your opinion is not only against once certain religion, but it against how the old used to think and many people still think the same way. However, you can't deny that by women wearing more covering clothes, raping accidents were less common.
That's because men are pigs. It's an imperfect solution, and I would imagine restricting the actions of men rather than women might be a slightly less imperfect one. (At least, that has been the solution in the U.S.A. and Europe more recently.)

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Originally Posted by Elaine View Post
I'm a woman, and I have to say that a lot of young women feel pressured to wear "revealing" clothing to feel loved. Most teenage boys are obsessed with sex, and don't want to have romantic dinners and what-not. I really envy the olden days where there were chivalrous young people with dreams and crap. Well you can't turn back the hands of time.
Of course, I should mention that she is 100% right here as to my previous point.

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Originally Posted by Elaine View Post
Most statistics say that young women nowadays are more likely to die before their male counterparts with the pressure of trying to be beautiful, raising children, and working. It's hard for young girls to fit in these days. I'm not saying guys don't have it bad, but I'm obviously biased on this subject.
It's... not really relevant, but some studies say that nudists, and especially women, live the longest of us all. It's not relevant to the question at hand, but in many ways nudists almost live the best in this scenario.

Basically, nudists don't worry about the stress of looking beautiful in the same way; "beautiful" is a concept completely different than those of most nations today - one that emphasizes respect.

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Well, it is by human nature that men get attracted to women.
...It's by (human) nature that men have sex with women.

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Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
No one nor any religion can deny that. It was known even in the ancient times. If we want to discuss the matter of covering certain parts of a woman's body then it is undeniable that this has lead to a decrease in sex crimes.
Still, at what cost?

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Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
Therefore, the rights and safety of the woman were protected. Furthermore, the possibility of giving birth to a child who doesn't know his father is also less. This problem has become quite common, leading to families broken apart. This issue solves both individual and social problems.
I do not ask this to make a point (I'd like to know the answer):

What is the punishment to a women for breaking this rule (wearing fewer clothes than desired); how would that "go down"?

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Originally Posted by LiteTheIronMan View Post
That's what I find sexist and degrading of women. This statement.
Thank you!

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Originally Posted by LiteTheIronMan View Post
Where is it proven that an attractive women has to flash her breasts to attract? The modestly dressed woman can't be more beautiful or attractive? Furthermore, can't the modestly dressed woman be more liable to have a sexual crime committed against her? Or just as likely? There's no REAL statistic or proof. It's just the assumption one has in a sexually driven society.
...Again, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Elaine View Post
Well that's her decision to show more off her body. But the men shouldn't be prowling around looking for girls to rape. They're both wrong. If only the world would gain a little common sense, we wouldn't have to debate this stuff.
See boldyness.

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Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
Of course they are both wrong. I am not saying that it is alright for men to do so, but I am arguing the not wearing flashy things can be a good way to make accidents less possible. No Lite, it is not about being beautiful or not, it is about what would drive a mad man to rape a girl.
"accidents"?! Since when is rape an accident?

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Originally Posted by LiteTheIronMan View Post
My problem with this and the rest of religiously motivated society is that it teaches "don't get raped" instead of "don't rape"- putting the blame and shame on the victim, the woman, instead of preventing the man.
Exactly. Ex-act-ly.

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Originally Posted by Elaine View Post
But what about the cases where the women rape the men? Is it because the men wear skanky clothing? I seriously doubt it. Most people think that it's only men who rape women, but they don't seem to realize that women could rape men. It's a rare case, but sometimes it happens.
You do have a point; from what I know, usually I don't think the attractiveness of the man is the main consideration, either.

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In this particular situation, I don't understand what's the problem with the sexist motivation you're talking about. If you're a married woman, why would you want to seduce other men? It would be disrespectful to your spouse and will ultimately result in family break-downs. If an action proves to be effective in reducing social problems without being consequential on the person doing it, then it only makes sense to do it.
Universally speaking, monogamy is not required for successful, healthy families.

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There's no denying that part of the blame goes to the woman.
...A women isn't allowed to feel beautiful? This is news to me...

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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
It's not an absolute must for a women to reveal her body in order to be considered beautiful. However, denying that wearing provocative clothing seduces men is illogical; if society today has become sexually-driven, then it only makes sense for people to be more cautious about it. In most cases, men will find a woman revealing her body more 'sexy' than a woman wearing a veil and a scarf these days, which is a sad truth. I understand that it's not always the woman's fault, but as a responsible human being perhaps she has to take some measures in order to protect herself.
I'm going to ask you the same thing I asked spirit: what would happen to a women who decided to one day not adhere to the dress requirements?

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1- If a woman was walking in the middle of an empty street (a wrong action) and then a drunk driver suddenly appears and runs her over, is it correct to say that the woman cannot get the blame because she didn't know what was going to happen? If the action that she's originally doing is wrong, you cannot justify it after a bigger mistake has taken place because of the original one.
So, how does that relate to rape? The two things are different. If a women used a crosswalk and a drunk ran her over, than she is completely innocent. Same thing with rape (usually, at least, but the rare exceptions aren't relevant).

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2- As I have numerously said, why do you want to look good in front of others when you are married? As for single ladies, it's still not right to justify a mistake because the society around you has become wrong; many of the women around me are Muslim, and although they never wore provocative clothing, they were still able to get married, have kids and enjoy their lives.
Maybe the man wants their wife to look good in front of others? Maybe both spouses want their superior others to look good when around company?



--

By the way: this was fun

Last edited by FreezeWarp; August 16, 2011 at 04:04:09 PM.
  #180  
Old August 16, 2011, 03:59:47 PM
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As for Atheism, it definitely existed since the ancient times, otherwise why would God be sending religions in the first place.
...The scientific explanation: people only recently required theism because they only recently started to question their existence. I am not researched so I could not defend this, but as far as I know few beings (if any) outside of humanity can so much as ponder why they exist, or even death (at the same early age most humans do).
Just wanted to pop in and say it wasn't me who posted that. ^^
  #181  
Old August 16, 2011, 04:03:05 PM
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Just wanted to pop in and say it wasn't me who posted that. ^^
...Whoops, sorry .

*yells at copy+paste keys*
  #182  
Old August 17, 2011, 02:49:58 AM
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Before anything, I'd like to point out that I'm not willing to drag this debate much further than I originally intended, especially since I believe no matter how much I say, FreezeWarp (and possibly other people) will not be convinced against the majority.

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That's because men are pigs. It's an imperfect solution, and I would imagine restricting the actions of men rather than women might be a slightly less imperfect one. (At least, that has been the solution in the U.S.A. and Europe more recently.)
It's funny you should bring that up because over here in the Middle East, both parties should follow the Islamic teachings and most of them do, which is why rape incidents are comparatively less common over here. Also, the Quran first mentions ‘hijaab’ (covering) for men before ‘hijaab’ for the women. As you might have guessed, the former is not as literal as the latter; the moment a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he should lower his gaze. This is what is meant by covering for men, which also agrees with what you just posted, proving that a man's role in such cases is more dangerous than a woman's. Plus, as I already told Lite, the punishments for rape/physical sexual harassment are MUCH more severe than when a woman doesn't wear covering clothing (more about this later on).

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
...It's by (human) nature that men have sex with women.
Who said you're not allowed to have sex in Islam? You're just not allowed to have illegal sex without being legally married. As long as you're married, you can have sex as much as you want.

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
What is the punishment to a women for breaking this rule (wearing fewer clothes than desired); how would that "go down"?
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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
I'm going to ask you the same thing I asked spirit: what would happen to a women who decided to one day not adhere to the dress requirements?
I get the feeling that you think every single woman over here follows the Islamic teachings. Guess what? There are women who refuse to wear a scarf and covering clothings because they're not 'convinced' by it. From what I've seen around me, the majority of Muslim families do not force women to do that unless the latter accept it, which means that they are given a choice (although they're encouraged to accept it). Of course, there are some parents who force their daughters to cover themselves, which is their way of disciplining them (similar to how many parents raise up their children differently). Barring the extremist Saudi Arabia, NOTHING is done to women who do not wear covering clothing, even though it's encouraged to do otherwise. I personally have a good number of relatives who don't wear a head-scarf, but nothing has ever been done to them.

Now, however, if a woman chooses to wear a head scarf and covering clothing (they go hand in hand, properly speaking), then suddenly decides she doesn't want to do that any more, the reaction can be mixed. Thankfully, I come from a family which is not extremist but also not very loose, so I know that it is seriously not preferred to do that but equally not very sinful comparatively. The more concerning scenario is when a woman chooses to wear covering clothing for a week let's say, does otherwise the next week, then goes back to the original appearance the following week. This is considered a ridicule of the Islamic teachings, and although I don't know what the punishments are for this, I know that they are not 'cruel' or 'degrading'. So yes, they are nowhere near as serious as you think.

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"accidents"?! Since when is rape an accident?
No need to be nit-picky; he obviously meant 'incidents' but used the wrong word.

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
Universally speaking, monogamy is not required for successful, healthy families.
If you want to debate it that way, then who said polygamy is not allowed in Islam? You're allowed to have up to four wives as long as you're legally married to them (of course, there are various teachings which you need to follow in order to be fair to all your women in this case).

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
...A women isn't allowed to feel beautiful? This is news to me...
Come to think of it, behind your sarcasm lies a potentially offensive statement; are you implying Muslim women cannot be beautiful? FYI: the majority of Muslim women are stylish in the sense that they wear 'modern' clothing while still obeying the teachings of Islam. As I have already stated before, Islam encourages ALL women to look good as long as they don't cross their lines. Strangely enough, you're being hypocritical by saying that a woman cannot look 'beautiful' without wearing non-revealing clothing, although you also agreed with Lite when he said that a modestly dressed woman can also look beautiful...

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So, how does that relate to rape? The two things are different. If a women used a crosswalk and a drunk ran her over, than she is completely innocent. Same thing with rape (usually, at least, but the rare exceptions aren't relevant).
I specifically said that she was walking in the middle of the street, which is a wrong action anyway. Although the drunk driver gets most of the blame for driving under the influence (similar to a rapist, who has done something horrible), the woman also gets part of the blame for not walking on the pavement (similar to a woman trying to seduce others and not taking 'safety' measures).

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
Maybe the man wants their wife to look good in front of others? Maybe both spouses want their superior others to look good when around company?
I find this kinda inexplicable; why, after potentially spending a lot of years in choosing the girl of your dreams, would you want your wife to show off her beauty to people around her? If I'm married to a gorgeous wife, I'll not want strangers to set eyes on her and envy her. Again, your impression of 'looking good' seems to be narrowed down to being 'not in cover', even though you agreed that a modestly-dressed woman can look beautiful.

Last edited by Shadow; August 17, 2011 at 05:36:08 AM.
  #183  
Old August 17, 2011, 05:52:54 AM
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Before anything, I'd like to point out that I'm not willing to drag this debate much further than I originally intended, especially since I believe no matter how much I say, FreezeWarp (and possibly other people) will not be convinced against the majority.
It would help if you defined what was to be convinced, and who the majority is.

I never post in this forum because I believe the BS I say, for what it's worth (while some may find it annoying, my main purposes are to learn more about people and learn more myself, and where possible encourage healthier debate -- that is, one that contains fewer annoying metaphors, fallacies, and so-on).

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Who said you're not allowed to have sex in Islam? You're just not allowed to have illegal sex without being legally married. As long as you're married, you can have sex as much as you want.
'Wasn't my point (...nor do I see how it could have made the slightest bit of sense as such). To clarify:

It is /not/ necessarily human nature for a man to be attracted to a women (or vice-versa or whatever); merely for compatible mates to reproduce.

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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
I get the feeling that you think every single woman over here follows the Islamic teachings. Guess what? There are women who refuse to wear a scarf and covering clothings because they're not 'convinced' by it. From what I've seen around me, the majority of Muslim families do not force women to do that unless the latter accept it, which means that they are given a choice (although they're encouraged to accept it). Of course, there are some parents who force their daughters to cover themselves, which is their way of disciplining them (similar to how many parents raise up their children differently). Barring the extremist Saudi Arabia, NOTHING is done to women who do not wear covering clothing, even though it's encouraged to do otherwise. I personally have a good number of relatives who don't wear a head-scarf, but nothing has ever been done to them.

Now, however, if a woman chooses to wear a head scarf and covering clothing (they go hand in hand, properly speaking), then suddenly decides she doesn't want to do that any more, the reaction can be mixed. Thankfully, I come from a family which is not extremist but also not very loose, so I know that it is seriously not preferred to do that but equally not very sinful comparatively. The more concerning scenario is when a woman chooses to wear covering clothing for a week let's say, does otherwise the next week, then goes back to the original appearance the following week. This is considered a ridicule of the Islamic teachings, and although I don't know what the punishments are for this, I know that they are not 'cruel' or 'degrading'. So yes, they are nowhere near as serious as you think.


(Thank you.)

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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
No need to be nit-picky; he obviously meant 'incidents' but used the wrong word.
Yeah, that would clarify. (I wasn't being "nit-picky".)

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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
If you want to debate it that way, then who said polygamy is not allowed in Islam? You're allowed to have up to four wives as long as you're legally married to them (of course, there are various teachings which you need to follow in order to be fair to all your women in this case).
No one stated polygamy wasn't allowed in Islam. I was showing that your metaphor was ineffective. Also, strictly speaking when only one gender is allowed multiple marriages, it's polygyny (for males marrying multiple females) or polyandry (for females marrying multiple males).

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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Come to think of it, behind your sarcasm lies a potentially offensive statement; are you implying Muslim women cannot be beautiful? FYI: the majority of Muslim women are stylish in the sense that they wear 'modern' clothing while still obeying the teachings of Islam. As I have already stated before, Islam encourages ALL women to look good as long as they don't cross their lines. Strangely enough, you're being hypothetical by saying that a woman cannot look 'beautiful' without wearing non-revealing clothing, although you also agreed with Lite when he said that a modestly dressed woman can also look beautiful...
A one sentence statement does not convey the meaning you seem to think it does.

It seems unnecessary, but I'd rather not look like I'm avoiding the question thing: my point merely was that *some* people /do/ seem to need artificial means (makeup, etc.) to feel beautiful. Personally, I know this from my sister. I know /some/ of what she's gone through.

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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
I specifically said that she was walking in the middle of the street, which is a wrong action anyway. Although the drunk driver gets most of the blame for driving under the influence (similar to a rapist, who has done something horrible), the woman also gets part of the blame for not walking on the pavement (similar to a woman trying to seduce others and not taking 'safety' measures).
And I was specifically saying you used a bad metaphor.

My point being it depends on your definition. It is /not/ unreasonable one would find no fault what-so-ever on the women even in your context.

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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
I find this kinda inexplicable; why, after potentially spending a lot of years in choosing the girl of your dreams, would you want your wife to show off her beauty to people around her? If I'm married to a gorgeous wife, I'll not want strangers to set eyes on her and envy her. Again, your impression of 'looking good' seems to be narrowed down to being 'not in cover', even though you agreed that a modestly-dressed woman can look beautiful.
That is a culture shock thing, truth-be-told. I could write a paper on it, but instead a single sentence will do to summarize: people like feeling proud of (and showing off) their accomplishments.

A beautiful mate may very well be (in, no doubt, the most complimentary sense imaginable) the greatest accomplishment a person will ever make in their life; at least, from some Western perspectives. Nor do I find such a thing at all unreasonable: after all, people are beautiful.

Last edited by FreezeWarp; August 17, 2011 at 05:53:45 AM.
  #184  
Old August 17, 2011, 12:37:18 PM
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It would help if you defined what was to be convinced, and who the majority is.
What's to be convinced: that Islam doesn't degrade women and strip them of their rights (in response to Lite's statement).

Majority: just an assumption I made that a lot of the people around you guys probably think in the same way.

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
I never post in this forum because I believe the BS I say, for what it's worth (while some may find it annoying, my main purposes are to learn more about people and learn more myself, and where possible encourage healthier debate -- that is, one that contains fewer annoying metaphors, fallacies, and so-on).
Okay, so I made what you considered a bad metaphor at 1:00 AM, and now that's done. Can we get over it?

As for the debating, I'm actually glad that we're taking this discussion back and forth; perhaps we'll both learn something or think differently after it.

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
'Wasn't my point (...nor do I see how it could have made the slightest bit of sense as such). To clarify:

It is /not/ necessarily human nature for a man to be attracted to a women (or vice-versa or whatever); merely for compatible mates to reproduce.
Ah, okay. Your comment was vague so I didn't quite understand why you said that. To clarify my statement, if you're married, you're not allowed to have illegal sex with another person. You can only have sex with your legal spouse. Also, it wasn't me who stated that it's instinctual for men to be attracted to women anyway.

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
No one stated polygamy wasn't allowed in Islam. I was showing that your metaphor was ineffective. Also, strictly speaking when only one gender is allowed multiple marriages, it's polygyny (for males marrying multiple females) or polyandry (for females marrying multiple males).
Wait, I didn't use a metaphor to talk about monogamy. I said that doing illegal sex will ultimately result in family break-downs, and that's when you posted that comment. As for that last bit, I wouldn't know the technical terms used for each case so I'm gonna have to take the words of a professional in this field.

[
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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
It seems unnecessary, but I'd rather not look like I'm avoiding the question thing: my point merely was that *some* people /do/ seem to need artificial means (makeup, etc.) to feel beautiful. Personally, I know this from my sister. I know /some/ of what she's gone through.
It's not a sin to put light make-up on when you're wearing covering clothing to beautify yourself, but putting tons of it is not really preferred.

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
And I was specifically saying you used a bad metaphor.
Thank you. Point understood.

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
My point being it depends on your definition. It is /not/ unreasonable one would find no fault what-so-ever on the women even in your context.
Continuing on with my utterly horrible metaphor, why do you think not even one small part of the blame goes to the woman?

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
That is a culture shock thing, truth-be-told. I could write a paper on it, but instead a single sentence will do to summarize: people like feeling proud of (and showing off) their accomplishments.
I have to agree. I guess it just comes down to the society around you and your personal preferences, although I know I would act 'selfish' once I pick my woman and keep her for myself only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
A beautiful mate may very well be (in, no doubt, the most complimentary sense imaginable) the greatest accomplishment a person will ever make in their life; at least, from some Western perspectives. Nor do I find such a thing at all unreasonable: after all, people are beautiful.
Again, I couldn't agree more.
  #185  
Old August 17, 2011, 02:05:26 PM
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What's to be convinced: that Islam doesn't degrade women and strip them of their rights (in response to Lite's statement).
For what it's worth, two countries both with Islam as the dominant religion could be different. From what I understand you live in Dubai, which is by-and-large the crown atop the Middle East. So... it may be different there than elsewhere.

A could example of this I actually can source (both from several Indian friends and separate research) is India, where in rural areas husbands will still, in rare but all the same existent cases, set their spouse aflame if upset at them (usually results in death), while in Urban areas the story is much more... well, basically, you'd be hung for the same act, more or less.


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Okay, so I made what you considered a bad metaphor at 1:00 AM, and now that's done. Can we get over it?
You're the one talking 'bout it now.


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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Ah, okay. Your comment was vague so I didn't quite understand why you said that. To clarify my statement, if you're married, you're not allowed to have illegal sex with another person. You can only have sex with your legal spouse. Also, it wasn't me who stated that it's instinctual for men to be attracted to women anyway.
True on the latter, but you still defended it (I think...)


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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Wait, I didn't use a metaphor to talk about monogamy. I said that doing illegal sex will ultimately result in family break-downs, and that's when you posted that comment. As for that last bit, I wouldn't know the technical terms used for each case so I'm gonna have to take the words of a professional in this field.
...No, wasn't a metaphor. Dunno, the point ultimately was (originally) that your statement seemed to assume that it was unreasonable for a women to be married and date another man (with her husbands approval); while its not exactly common (...to say the least), it still is a valid position in some realms. Still, outside of that, I'm not really debating your point there.

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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
It's not a sin to put light make-up on when you're wearing covering clothing to beautify yourself, but putting tons of it is not really preferred.
No, but it is a me-vs-the guy over there sorta thing. I personally can't stand women with loads of makeup (and for the most part prefer the naturalist look), but I don't see anything wrong with them doing so for their own (sometimes) petty reasons.

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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Continuing on with my utterly horrible metaphor, why do you think not even one small part of the blame goes to the woman?
Well, it's hard to put it in proper perspective, but I guess doing so would go something like this (it's hard to put the full act into words, for what should be fairly obvious reasons):

In general, the idea of consent is fairly key. In playing out a (fairly typical, I would assume) rape scenario in my mind, I imagine something along the lines of a man forcing himself upon a women, despite her repeated attempts to get away, calls for help, insults, whatever. Essentially, he is refusing to remove himself from her body despite her (words fail here) wishes. And, somehow, the idea that she somehow still wa s at (any level of) fault for causing an act which she, at that point, had no control over, and moreover was the sole victim of (to a crime considered second to murder, no less, at least by many Western countries), well, it doesn't really make sense. I can read your point to reasonably say (and leave it quite simply as) "men have no control over themselves", but I'm pretty sure that's not the idea here.

Again, the scale of things is important: I'm not talking about any statistical benefit (which I'm sure exists, but still at what cost?), I'm talking about real-life situations. Incidents of rape that actually happen. And at no point do I see a reasonable explanation for how a women, by dressing slightly proactively, can be seen as the cause for an abhorrent violation of her rights.

In truth, I'm almost wondering what you define rape as.

(Also, p.s., this entire little subsection of the post is largely a string of words, since I know of no intelligent way of expressing the idea at hand. Don't take it as an insult, just a raw feed of what I think to myself as I try to understand where you are coming from.)

Last edited by FreezeWarp; August 17, 2011 at 02:06:01 PM.
  #186  
Old August 18, 2011, 01:10:01 PM
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For what it's worth, two countries both with Islam as the dominant religion could be different. From what I understand you live in Dubai, which is by-and-large the crown atop the Middle East. So... it may be different there than elsewhere.

A could example of this I actually can source (both from several Indian friends and separate research) is India, where in rural areas husbands will still, in rare but all the same existent cases, set their spouse aflame if upset at them (usually results in death), while in Urban areas the story is much more... well, basically, you'd be hung for the same act, more or less.
Unfortunately, your point is right. Not all Middle Eastern countries follow Islamic teachings properly, which is why I think the Arab world is regarded as inferior to the Western world (when the opposite was true in the past). However, I guess the world cannot function perfectly, so I can say that for the most part, rural areas are really the only parts where women MIGHT be stripped of their dignity (and let's face it, that doesn't only occur in the Middle East specifically).

I do want to add that if people in the West (the extremists, I suppose) could read the things I'm posting and understand the different side of things (the proper side), I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be called terrorists by them. Strangely enough, the same applies to the minority of people over here who bash the Western world. It's a two-way reality- a sad one at that -created from misconception and misleading media.

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
...No, wasn't a metaphor. Dunno, the point ultimately was (originally) that your statement seemed to assume that it was unreasonable for a women to be married and date another man (with her husbands approval); while its not exactly common (...to say the least), it still is a valid position in some realms. Still, outside of that, I'm not really debating your point there.
Again, I get what you're trying to put across and I agree with it. However, over here, dating another man while married is considered really disrespectful to your husband and will probably ultimately result in a divorce under the excuse of 'cheating'. And maybe it's a culture thing, but men over here never approve their wives specifically dating other men. A small number of them may allow their wives to have male friends, but otherwise, it's different over here.

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
No, but it is a me-vs-the guy over there sorta thing. I personally can't stand women with loads of makeup (and for the most part prefer the naturalist look), but I don't see anything wrong with them doing so for their own (sometimes) petty reasons.
My tastes are identical to yours. And while I can't consider this context for the lack of knowledge, I do know that Islam makes room for plenty of special cases and so is a flexible religion. Perhaps such cases fall under this category (not to the extent of allowing provocative clothing - something less drastic).

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
Well, it's hard to put it in proper perspective, but I guess doing so would go something like this (it's hard to put the full act into words, for what should be fairly obvious reasons):

In general, the idea of consent is fairly key. In playing out a (fairly typical, I would assume) rape scenario in my mind, I imagine something along the lines of a man forcing himself upon a women, despite her repeated attempts to get away, calls for help, insults, whatever. Essentially, he is refusing to remove himself from her body despite her (words fail here) wishes. And, somehow, the idea that she somehow still wa s at (any level of) fault for causing an act which she, at that point, had no control over, and moreover was the sole victim of (to a crime considered second to murder, no less, at least by many Western countries), well, it doesn't really make sense. I can read your point to reasonably say (and leave it quite simply as) "men have no control over themselves", but I'm pretty sure that's not the idea here.

Again, the scale of things is important: I'm not talking about any statistical benefit (which I'm sure exists, but still at what cost?), I'm talking about real-life situations. Incidents of rape that actually happen. And at no point do I see a reasonable explanation for how a women, by dressing slightly proactively, can be seen as the cause for an abhorrent violation of her rights.
While I confess that it's a little difficult for me to understand this perfectly, I see what you're trying to point out. It's worth noting that when I said that part of the blame goes to the woman, I didn't exactly have law in mind. It's just the kind of thing where somebody goes: "Well next time, you shouldn't be doing this, just to be on the safe side". In other words, I obviously acknowledge the serious crime of raping and its consequences on the rapist (where the victim is more or less terrorized and cannot take blame), so I guess we're both correct in our own ways.

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Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
In truth, I'm almost wondering what you define rape as.
Oh please, I don't think I need to post a demonstration. xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
(Also, p.s., this entire little subsection of the post is largely a string of words, since I know of no intelligent way of expressing the idea at hand. Don't take it as an insult, just a raw feed of what I think to myself as I try to understand where you are coming from.)
And your involvement is much appreciated.
  #187  
Old August 18, 2011, 06:01:04 PM
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This thread seems like it's on a crash-course to nowhere. If someone could please tell me how a debate about religion turned into a debate about rape, I'd be rather grateful.
  #188  
Old August 18, 2011, 07:00:25 PM
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Unfortunately, your point is right. Not all Middle Eastern countries follow Islamic teachings properly, which is why I think the Arab world is regarded as inferior to the Western world (when the opposite was true in the past). However, I guess the world cannot function perfectly, so I can say that for the most part, rural areas are really the only parts where women MIGHT be stripped of their dignity (and let's face it, that doesn't only occur in the Middle East specifically).
Though its irrelevant, from what I've been taught (I dislike geography so much I never care to see if I'm being brainwashed), the Middle East was better than elsewhere millennia ago, though no doubt it was the very best and most advanced place on earth. It could be (may very well be) wrong as to the non-recentness of it.


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I do want to add that if people in the West (the extremists, I suppose) could read the things I'm posting and understand the different side of things (the proper side), I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be called terrorists by them. Strangely enough, the same applies to the minority of people over here who bash the Western world. It's a two-way reality- a sad one at that -created from misconception and misleading media.
Better yet, read Salon.com. While it's a combination of politics and pointless pointlessness, the former is without a doubt some of the most insightful and educated out there (if not at times heavily biased).

You yourself would like Glenn Greenwald

Also, it's worth noting that, as much as I hate to say it, the United States (and, indeed like before, I don't know enough to speak of any other location) has an amazing ability to be ignorant. An amazing one. It's not /just/ the extremists you refer to. I dunno who to blame for it, but I do hold in huge contempt the media -- Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, ABC News, and the like. Though, I do personally like The Daily Show and the Colbert Report...


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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Again, I get what you're trying to put across and I agree with it. However, over here, dating another man while married is considered really disrespectful to your husband and will probably ultimately result in a divorce under the excuse of 'cheating'. And maybe it's a culture thing, but men over here never approve their wives specifically dating other men. A small number of them may allow their wives to have male friends, but otherwise, it's different over here.
Sorta shows how much of a culture war this has suddenly become; that's no different in my locality, nor was it ever really the point -- just that there are other stories the original statement ignores.

(that said, prolly best to drop that particular piece here, just decided to comment on it for no reason)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaredvcxz View Post
This thread seems like it's on a crash-course to nowhere. If someone could please tell me how a debate about religion turned into a debate about rape, I'd be rather grateful.
The religion at hand was perceived to tolerate rape greater and (more towards the root) degrade women than others.

...Pretty simple, really.

Last edited by FreezeWarp; August 18, 2011 at 07:01:36 PM.
  #189  
Old August 18, 2011, 07:16:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreezeWarp View Post
Though, I do personally like The Daily Show and the Colbert Report...

I love how the two political analysts that don't take political analysis seriously are the only two that don't BS about political topics
  #190  
Old August 18, 2011, 07:17:30 PM
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Originally Posted by LiteTheIronMan View Post
I love how the two political analysts that don't take political analysis seriously are the only two that don't BS about political topics
Yeah, me too
  #191  
Old August 19, 2011, 05:13:47 AM
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I am a non practicing Catholic so I believe in God and the bible, but I don't believe in having to go to church each Sunday.
  #192  
Old August 19, 2011, 05:15:12 AM
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I am a non practicing Catholic so I believe in God and the bible, but I don't believe in having to go to church each Sunday.
That's not exactly a debate, but I'll take it as a first post.
  #193  
Old May 22, 2012, 03:18:46 AM
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these type of subjects are usually very diverse =3

but as for me i dont believe in anything, this is my opinion so no flaming me yeah?

1- thinking that we are the only living things in the universe is just stupid, and thinking that IF there was a god he would just be on this planet is abit odd.

2-if there was a god seeing everything that goes on in this world ranging from murder,kidnapping,war etc dont you think he would have done something by now?

remember this is my opinion so respect it, more than welcome to pick holes though.

but if anything i think people are relying to much on "god" these days if you are interested i can expand on that but that does not have anything to do with this subject though =3

Last edited by Shadow-lucario; May 22, 2012 at 03:20:58 AM.
  #194  
Old May 22, 2012, 08:19:52 PM
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Even though I am quite the religious person myself, I completely respect your opinion and I believe you. There has to be something more than just us in the universe, and wouldn't there be a God for them too? And with all these bad acts going on, it's almost like he doesn't do much.
My personal opinion is that I believe God governs the whole universe, and that even though murder and all these things happen, it's just natural law. It happens in the animal kingdom everyday, and since we're just evolved mammals, it would be natural for us to behave similarly somehow.
  #195  
Old August 21, 2012, 10:22:20 AM
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I am an atheist because i view everything scientifically and a higher diety makes no sense to me. I also think that religions are illogical because they limit people for stupid reasons.

In a perfect world, we would'nt debate about this. People are entitled to their own opinion.
  #196  
Old November 14, 2013, 06:05:28 PM
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@Rape debate: Middle East =/= 'Murica. The countries are vastly different and on top of that, white men pretty much dominate the US, period. Also, the most common defense in rape cases (for those that the defendant is male) is that it was consensual. Some even say she had it coming due to clothes and whatevs. It's just flawed, badly. The US crime system is also flawed and only looks good on paper. Just because she smiles at you, does not mean she wants to go home with you. For some reason, men have a VERY hard time figuring out the difference.

About Religion: Personally, I do not practice a Religion due to the fact that I view prayers and practices as therapy. HOWEVER, I do believe there is SOME sort of being that guards/guides spirits. C'mon, if you believe ghosts are real (which they ARE) then you pretty much accept that "holy" beings also exist. Both are not explained by science, so that's not a defense.


Edit: I forgot to mention what I do believe in, lol. I view more on will more than anything. Your choices will grant me the ability to judge you (not in a mean way, lol). Bad choices, bad person. Good choices, good person. Simple, observant, fascinating.

Last edited by Sub-zero; November 14, 2013 at 06:07:59 PM.
  #197  
Old November 14, 2013, 07:41:23 PM
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After reading the last few pages of thread . . . I'm still wondering how the "debate" about rape popped up ._.

Anyway, in the hopes of clarifying the argument that if God was a thing, there wouldn't be murder and bank robberies and West Nile Virus and everything . . .

Okay, West Nile is a bad example because that's just nature being nature, but most religions are pretty straightforward about some God-like figure or another giving people free will. To have divine intervention stop someone from clubbing someone else over the head may save the other's live (or, at the very least, a lot of trouble for both of them) but it would also suspend the free will of the attacker. Plus, divine intervention seems to be a pretty rare thing to being with.

There do seem to be some exceptions to this in the Bible and whatnot iirc, so there's got to be more to this, but just some food for thought.
  #198  
Old November 14, 2013, 07:44:10 PM
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This is kind of more of a opinion question, but how does everyone feel about the word "pray"? When someone says, "I'll pray for you" do you take this as ridiculous because you think religion is ridiculous or do you view their emotions meaning you view that sentence as "I'm hoping things will get better for you" without the religious contents?

Last edited by Sub-zero; November 14, 2013 at 07:44:31 PM.
  #199  
Old November 14, 2013, 08:38:56 PM
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When most people say "I'll pray for [insert something here]," they mean "I'll keep that in mind and I hope said situation gets better," and maybe "if I have a good memory I'll give it a recitation at Church next Sunday." I've even known a few atheists/agnostics who say that once in a while.

Never thought about what would happen if you said that to someone who thought religion is flat-out ridiculous. If they threw a fit over it that would be kind of a jerk move, though, since the person is giving out condolences and being rejected
  #200  
Old January 15, 2014, 05:32:19 PM
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Quote:
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Never thought about what would happen if you said that to someone who thought religion is flat-out ridiculous. If they threw a fit over it that would be kind of a jerk move, though, since the person is giving out condolences and being rejected
I thought I had replied to this... Anyways, do you know of a certain group (forgot what they call themselves) who are composed of White males and consider them Atheists of some sort? They downright spit at those who follow any Religion and look down on such words as "I'll pray for you" and such. Dangit, I wish I could remember what they were called. I believe they started on the internet.
 
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