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  #1  
Old July 16, 2012, 12:52:25 PM
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Default 9/11 Conspiracy Theories vs. Occam's Razor

Everywhere am I seeing people who believe these stupid theories, that the government orchestrated the destruction of the World Trade Center with the use of explosives. And god damn does it piss me off, because there's no way it could've happened once you put some thought into it.

So you believe explosives brought down the Twin Towers, and that the planes alone wouldn't be able to?
I'm not expecting anyone here to believe that theory, but in the event that you want to confront someone that does, have them consider:

How the explosives could've been meticulously and discretely placed. There would need to be a ton of covert "maintenance" to get the explosives in all their right spots with no one suspecting anything. And then all the wiring (which would cover even more ground) would have to be secretly tucked and running all over the inside of the building. How are you going to get all the manpower to set that up? The people accomplishing this not only have to be willing to set up this massive tragedy, but also know how.

The possible disruption of said explosives/wiring from the plane impact and subsequent fire. I'd be awfully surprised if it's still in condition to explode as intended after all that.

If the planes failed to hit the buildings, the structures would still be rigged to explode. Then whole thing would need to be done all over again, or call it quits and have the explosives and wiring taken out with secrecy. Again, more taxing manpower needed.

The fact that everyone involved would need to be okay with killing thousands of people and flattening two major landmarks. The demomen, the security people pretending to do their jobs but actually letting the setup go undetected, the investigators hiding the actual evidence, etc.

And lastly, would it even be considered a reasonable excuse to go to war? Why bother taking the extreme measures needed to make this act of "terrorism" happen? Some truckbombs elsewhere would be way simpler and still get the message across. Sure, Bush's approval rating jumped to his all-time high of 90% when he declared the war on terror, but it would be at such a high cost. Again, why bother? That's the question I'd throw in the face of a lot of the asinine theories out there about some act of government mischief.


Anyway, terrorists hijacked planes which crashed and caused havoc on our soil, and we weren't prepared for it. The impact and resulting fire destroyed vital support structures to bring down the WTC. It couldn't be simpler. The amount of assumptions required for a conspiracy theory to be true makes them so illogical, only idiots who want to be afraid would believe them. Oh no, the Illuminati-Freemasons-CIA are listening!
  #2  
Old July 16, 2012, 01:03:24 PM
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kakashidragon kakashidragon is offline
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The only thing i got to say about this is that if they wanted to go to war with us they would have done this many more times than what they did that 1 time. But thats just me.
  #3  
Old July 16, 2012, 01:12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by kakashidragon View Post
The only thing i got to say about this is that if they wanted to go to war with us they would have done this many more times than what they did that 1 time. But thats just me.
So sending 19 people to hijack four planes and crash them into up to four landmarks and mail anthrax attacks afterwards was just a quirk, and Al-Quaeda didn't really mean it?
  #4  
Old July 16, 2012, 01:23:44 PM
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I am sorry to say this, but your points are not as solid as you might think. Now I take no position in this debate, since I am not American, but as a neutral viewer, I dare say that you aren't totally right.

First of all, there is physics behind the impact. Those with the theory that the aeroplanes aren't enough provided mathematical simulation, suggesting that the impact wouldn't be as huge, or that its direction would be different than what happened. If you don't provide diagrams and graphs that can prove an aeroplane can cause such a damage and make the towers fall downwards, then you can at least start to convince people.

The second thing to keep in mind is not to trust a politician, no matter who he is. Personally, I have grown to mistrust every politician, since they just promise to gain their position and then leave the poor people alone.

I understand it was your government, but don't trust them blindly. Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if they, or any government in this world, decided to sacrifice thousands of people in order to receive a political gain. Trust me, they don't care. Yes, they might not have done it, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't. And a government is strong enough to replace security guards with its agents to prepare the plan.

What I am trying to say is that not everything told on television by the higher-ups is true, the higher-ups are not as good as what you may think and in this world, brutally sacrificing people has become a trend.
  #5  
Old July 16, 2012, 02:24:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
I am sorry to say this, but your points are not as solid as you might think. Now I take no position in this debate, since I am not American, but as a neutral viewer, I dare say that you aren't totally right.

First of all, there is physics behind the impact. Those with the theory that the aeroplanes aren't enough provided mathematical simulation, suggesting that the impact wouldn't be as huge, or that its direction would be different than what happened. If you don't provide diagrams and graphs that can prove an aeroplane can cause such a damage and make the towers fall downwards, then you can at least start to convince people.

The second thing to keep in mind is not to trust a politician, no matter who he is. Personally, I have grown to mistrust every politician, since they just promise to gain their position and then leave the poor people alone.

I understand it was your government, but don't trust them blindly. Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if they, or any government in this world, decided to sacrifice thousands of people in order to receive a political gain. Trust me, they don't care. Yes, they might not have done it, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't. And a government is strong enough to replace security guards with its agents to prepare the plan.

What I am trying to say is that not everything told on television by the higher-ups is true, the higher-ups are not as good as what you may think and in this world, brutally sacrificing people has become a trend.
I'm not looking to the government's outlets for answers, nor am I sifting through Infowars for the truth. I'm thinking for myself: what's the most reasonable scenario? In this case I'm using Occam's Razor, which states that the hypothesis that requires the fewest assumptions is the most probable. The non-conspiracy theory wins by a long shot. The explosives theory seems convenient enough when put in a nutshell, but would have an extreme amount of hindrances if you're willing to think about it realistically.

You haven't provided any reasoning or insight of your own, you've only reminded that nothing is infallible, which is a given. You're telling me not to trust politicians, which I'm not getting my beliefs from anyway.
  #6  
Old July 16, 2012, 04:40:16 PM
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What I find weird is that the Twin Towers were specially designed to withstand a plane's impact. Plus, jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel and cause the towers to collapse at freefall speed.

Another strange coincidence- FEMA happened to be in the WTC area since the day before, perfectly positioned to ship off all the rubble, hence removing any evidence that would've helped a real investigation, and turned the situation into what actually happened.

Also related: Why is there no footage of the Pentagon being hit if there were at least 85 cameras perfectly positioned around the Pentagon?

Aldditionally, Building 7 (another steel-framed building) collapsed in 6 seconds, despite not being hit directly by a plane. The corporate media spread just enough propaganda and lies to push Congress into signing a 400-page Orwellian and Draconian legislation (known as the Patriot Act) taking away all of our freedoms, pushing America into a state of drooling desperation to get us to rally behind a puppet President who pushed us into an illegal war based on lies that has subsequently been responsible for the deaths of over a million people in Iraq, who had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

Last edited by Velociraptor78; July 16, 2012 at 04:41:44 PM. Reason: Formatting
  #7  
Old July 16, 2012, 09:48:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tymp View Post
I'm not looking to the government's outlets for answers, nor am I sifting through Infowars for the truth. I'm thinking for myself: what's the most reasonable scenario? In this case I'm using Occam's Razor, which states that the hypothesis that requires the fewest assumptions is the most probable. The non-conspiracy theory wins by a long shot. The explosives theory seems convenient enough when put in a nutshell, but would have an extreme amount of hindrances if you're willing to think about it realistically.

You haven't provided any reasoning or insight of your own, you've only reminded that nothing is infallible, which is a given. You're telling me not to trust politicians, which I'm not getting my beliefs from anyway.
I am not taking sides because I lack detailed scientific facts, but as an outsider, I am telling you that your arguement needs a proof.

The other thing you talked about is how much a hassle it is for it to be a conspiracy, using this as a reason to dismiss the theory. This is why I told you not to trust politicians and don't take matters too easily. It might be a harder operation, but the results were beneficial to the government too, which is why the government would be ready to tire itself with such a plan and sacrifice thousands to gain those benefits.

It is you who needs to look more carefully into such important matters, as you are only dismissing other rivaling theories just because they are harder to operate. Remember, they could be harder, but are still possible.
  #8  
Old July 16, 2012, 09:58:42 PM
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I personally find it disrespectful for those who think this was a conspiracy by the government. This tragedy was a terrorist plot, unfortunately executed well, that killed thousands of Americans. That's all there is to it. I understand that people always like to try and find suspicious info to make things seem more complicated than they really are, but to me it's just to distract people from the painful truth. People want scapegoats, essentially.

Last edited by Cyrus; July 16, 2012 at 10:07:19 PM.
  #9  
Old July 16, 2012, 10:31:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
First of all, there is physics behind the impact. Those with the theory that the aeroplanes aren't enough provided mathematical simulation, suggesting that the impact wouldn't be as huge, or that its direction would be different than what happened. If you don't provide diagrams and graphs that can prove an aeroplane can cause such a damage and make the towers fall downwards, then you can at least start to convince people.
This is making a silly argument and demanding to be proven wrong. The burden of proof lies with the other side. But it's been demonstrated countless times if you insist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
The second thing to keep in mind is not to trust a politician, no matter who he is.
You don't trust politicians, therefor conspiracy. Gotcha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
I understand it was your government, but don't trust them blindly.
I do not blindly trust my government. I trust scientists and engineers who have studied years in their field more than random online folk. They're experts in their field. I'm more inclined to take dental advice from a dentist than dental advice from a guy who claims the moon is made of cheese.

One hilarious claim I've seen is the one that the jet fuel would need to melt the steel ( 1525° C ) but it burned at 825° C, totally ignoring the fact that steel loses 50% of its structural integrity at 648 ° C.

If I were to see a vase was knocked over in my house, it's a lot more logical to assume a member of the household knocked it over than assume martians visited my house and knocked it over. It's basic economy of logic. Plurality should not be posited without necessity.

A.) Thousands of FBI agents, firefighters, demolition experts, scientists, CIA agents, rescue workers, police, airline pilots, the entire NSA, the majority of the House of Representatives, air traffic control, high-level military contractors, and the entire Bush administration are all in on it and realllly good at keeping secrets.

B.) Somebody flew an airplane into a building to murder foreign nationals they don't agree with.

Acts like B.) happen every day and it's not out of the ordinary. People kill others they don't agree with. It's a real shock, I know. A.) requires a lot of unnecessary assumptions. Consider the parties responsible have claimed responsibility. When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.

Last edited by hinorashi; July 16, 2012 at 10:38:30 PM.
  #10  
Old July 29, 2012, 09:00:40 AM
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All I have to say is, It might of been a terrorist attack ,but it might of not been.I don't want to get more into it .We don't know what it was,and I doubt that we will ever know.I don't live in the US of A so I cant really say that much I guess .But all I have to say is just leave it ,that is what the government wants you to do ,so they can control you.(enough said)
  #11  
Old July 29, 2012, 10:55:41 AM
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Anythings possible. I think it was the US government because they needed a reason to invade Iraq (or whatever country).
 
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