Tiers: Step-by-Step Definition

[KrayzeeGuy]

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Tiers are not for queers, nor are they the absolute value you should live by in Smash Tournaments.

Tiers are a systematic and highly debated, hotly discussed, and heated researched topic at large smash forums such as smashboards and allisbrawl. Large sites like these work together to deduce which character is most optimal for winning tournament events.

Tier research goes as such:

1) Amount of recorded victories at tournaments - All recorded tournaments always put out the victor, and the character used in the victory, this is used primarily to help record win-loss ratios to help boost or lower tier placement. This actually is now used as a primary judgment of tier placement.

2) Placings in rounds in tournaments - Even if you do not win first place, losing first-round or winning until the semi-finals will affect victory ratios by a point system installed in tier ranks. So try to go far with your favorite characters! This too is now used more than the rest in tier placement.

3) Hitbox research - This actually takes deep decoding, modding, and testing. There are codes out there that allow you to see damage boxes in certain colors, or even hitboxes in other colors. Tier Researchers constantly review hitboxes and attack effects to see who has advantage in what vital situation during brawls.

4) Infinite research - This includes chain research. Many characters have chains that are inescapable until a certain percent. This greatly assesses tier placement or even tournament limitations and guidelines.

5) Means of recovery - Every character has different or similar recoveries, but such recoveries like Ike's really give characters like him limitations, and as such, affected his base tier ranking. Nowadays this doesn't affect tiers as much.
6) Weight - This had very little effect before, but it does have some qualification when discussing comparisons. To this day it still holds minimal effect on tier rankings.

7) Move Priority - This was the gemstone of primordial tiers, back when the first Brawl tier list was made, priority was key, hence the reason why Falco actually maintained his high tier setting in the beginning, despite his new moves and effects.

====On the Topic of Tiers====

Now when you use tiers in a discussion, you need to understand that in the current age, tiers are now based off win/loss ratios. So when something is 'top tier', it has two meanings:
1) The character is used by people who have a mentality that results in many wins.
2) The character has a more efficient and clean-cut use, execution that may result in more victories.

This is not to say that if you pick Metaknight, you will win hands down. Every character has strong and weak points, thus character comparisons are in effect.

Back on topic, tiers should only be used to assess the ratio of what characters to expect at big tournaments. Now here's where tiers become strategic.

60% of brawling communities follow tier lists to change their 'mains' to top tier characters. This leaves lower tier characters unused and unknown to many. Mastering a single low-tier character to counter many top tier characters can result in a comeuppance for you in a tournament, or even moreso, you raising the tier level of your character that you love so much.


I'm done rambling for now, I'll add more when the time comes.

Feel free to discuss, question, correct me, personally this is all data from what I gathered when I used to be a tourney tard and whatnot.

In the next installment I'll talk about stage legality.

[LiteTheIronMan]

Tiers make no sense sometimes. I mean, I know they're calculated based on evidence from tournaments and their possible skill set, but...

Okay. Look here for one second.

Samus is #33 on the tier scale because she supposedly has no kill moves, is bulky with a floaty fallspeed, and her effectiveness from Melee was nerfed. Zero Suit Samus ranks #15 (Nearly TWICE as effective as her Power Suit form) because she's agile. And that's basically it.

Now, knowing these two Brawlers in and out I can safely say that Samus definitely has less of a learning curve than ZS Samus. Samus is easy to control in the air due to her floatiness, is bulky enough to remain onstage for a good while, and has a lot of good kill moves (Fsmash, Charge Shot, Dsmash, Utilt, Ftilt, Bair, and Nair) and can rack up damage easily using moves like the Screw Attack and Missiles. Her only problem is her lack of a reflective attack- most Brawlers that are projectile-based also have a counter to projectiles i.e. the StarFox crew's Reflectors and the PK Twin's PSI Magnet.

Now, Zero Suit Samus is completely opposite. Her learning curve is incredibly high as her agility and flexibility leave her extremely difficult to control. Most of her kill moves (Plasma Whip, Fsmash, most if not all of her aerial moves) extend too far and miss her opponent. On top of that, she doesn't have many damage-racking moves apart from her smashes and grabs, and her tether grab and her side-B (Plasma Whip) are both terrible, with incredibly large deadzones and buildup lag that leaves her open to attack. Also, Flip Kick is useless in every imaginable situation.

I understand people use tiers as a definite basis but sometimes upon further analysis these scales can be complete BS.

[KrayzeeGuy]

Originally Posted by LiteTheIronMan

Tiers make no sense sometimes. I mean, I know they're calculated based on evidence from tournaments and their possible skill set, but...

Okay. Look here for one second.

Samus is #33 on the tier scale because she supposedly has no kill moves, is bulky with a floaty fallspeed, and her effectiveness from Melee was nerfed. Zero Suit Samus ranks #15 (Nearly TWICE as effective as her Power Suit form) because she's agile. And that's basically it.

Now, knowing these two Brawlers in and out I can safely say that Samus definitely has less of a learning curve than ZS Samus. Samus is easy to control in the air due to her floatiness, is bulky enough to remain onstage for a good while, and has a lot of good kill moves (Fsmash, Charge Shot, Dsmash, Utilt, Ftilt, Bair, and Nair) and can rack up damage easily using moves like the Screw Attack and Missiles. Her only problem is her lack of a reflective attack- most Brawlers that are projectile-based also have a counter to projectiles i.e. the StarFox crew's Reflectors and the PK Twin's PSI Magnet.

Now, Zero Suit Samus is completely opposite. Her learning curve is incredibly high as her agility and flexibility leave her extremely difficult to control. Most of her kill moves (Plasma Whip, Fsmash, most if not all of her aerial moves) extend too far and miss her opponent. On top of that, she doesn't have many damage-racking moves apart from her smashes and grabs, and her tether grab and her side-B (Plasma Whip) are both terrible, with incredibly large deadzones and buildup lag that leaves her open to attack. Also, Flip Kick is useless in every imaginable situation.

I understand people use tiers as a definite basis but sometimes upon further analysis these scales can be complete BS.

Don't forget, the modern tier list is only based off tournament winnings. So all that Samus is based on is the playership of her users.

Now, for stage legality, this is a shorter topic, but also a MUCH more complex one in the modern times.

Stage legality is all about loose mathematics, and opinion.

If a stage allows chain grabbery until death on both sides, it's banned.
If a stage has an obviously exploitable gimmick, or allows stalling too easily, it's usually banned (Luigi's Mansion and Spear Pillar are argued over this, Spear Pillar is not really argued over the Pokemon attacks.)
If a stage is so random it causes too much havoc, it is usually banned. (See Pictochat, despite being allowed, many think it is too random, but the truth is the drawings really don't cause too much interference.)

From then on, it becomes opinion and math. Math for instances like Frigate Orpheon, detecting how much of the screen is possible death when the stage swaps. Opinion for instances like Rainbow Cruise, which isn't too fast, despite being a scrolling stage, and the only obstacle is jumping with the platforms.

Personally, the only stage I think should be reviewed for legality is Port Town Aero Dive. That stage saves people way too many times for any amount of patience.


MOAR COMMENTZ KTHX

[Sableyed]

It's like I always say: Ranking characters can only lead to tiers.

I think that tiers are less important in Brawl than they are in Pokemon. Pokemon is a very strategy based game, and if you don't use the right Pokemon it becomes impossible to win. Brawl is more of a skill based game. Certain people are better with certain characters, and if you're good enough with a character, than tiers probably don't matter much. Obviously some characters are easier to use, and some can be abused, but tiers will not help you win if you have no skill.

[Sunny]

Originally Posted by Sableyed

but tiers will not help you win if you have no skill.

Unless you play metaknight. C:

Lowest learning curve, yet highest on the tier list. xD But yea, its possible for any character to be played well if the player knows what hes doing. =w=

[Sableyed]

Originally Posted by Sunny

Unless you play metaknight. C:

Lowest learning curve, yet highest on the tier list. xD But yea, its possible for any character to be played well if the player knows what hes doing. =w=

Hmm, lowest on the learning curve? I think he's easier than, say, Ness, or Peach. Also, I think Meta Knight is only really broken when you have a player that really knows how to abuse him.

[Sunny]

Originally Posted by Sableyed

Hmm, lowest on the learning curve? I think he's easier than, say, Ness, or Peach. Also, I think Meta Knight is only really broken when you have a player that really knows how to abuse him.

I picked him up a few days a go and now my nephew says hes my best character after like 5 minutes of training. .w. Metaknight doesn't have anything really hard to learn. The hardest part about playing metaknight is counting all that money you'd be winning from tourneys.

[Sableyed]

Oh, lowest as in easiest. I thought you meant lowest as in most difficult. Yeah, I guess Meta Knight is easy to use, but not as easy to abuse.

It's like they say "Some of them want to use him. Some of them want to be used by him. Some of them want to abuse him. Some of them want to be abused by him"

[LiteTheIronMan]

Originally Posted by Sableyed

Also, I think Meta Knight is only really broken when you have a player that knows how to press the B Button.

Fixed for accuracy.

[Sableyed]

Are all of his B-moves that broken? I know the B-Down can be used to cheaply avoid attacks, but I can't pull it off. Other than that they don't seem too bad, except that they all can be used for recovery.

[Sunny]

Originally Posted by Sableyed

Are all of his B-moves that broken? I know the B-Down can be used to cheaply avoid attacks, but I can't pull it off. Other than that they don't seem too bad, except that they all can be used for recovery.

B-down is the worst of his b-moves actually. Its only use for a safe recovery if ya wanna be tricky and a few mindgames.

Anywho his B-tornado is unblockable for all characters except yoshi because it wrecks shields. Its also pretty hard to avoid and safe to use because its so damn hard to punsih. He also gains priority the longer he uses it so it beats almost every move imaginable.

His up-b shutter loop has amazing kill power, turns him invincible while performing on the ground making it beat every other move the opponent can use most of the time, and puts im into instant glide which lets him follow up with a glide attack. Also amazing for recovery.

His side b is ok offensivly, not amazing, but it can recover metaknight from pretty much anywear.

[KrayzeeGuy]

One thing you need to know though Sableye is that Brawl tiers, unlike Pokemon tiers, have no opinionated input. They're all empirical data from tournament success.


Brawl tiers are leading statistics, that are accurate to a T to any situation.

Now opinions, however, aren't lost, they get migrated into the Match-Ups, where debates break out on win-loss ratios.

[LiteTheIronMan]

Originally Posted by KrayzeeGuy

One thing you need to know though Sableye is that Brawl tiers, unlike Pokemon tiers, have no opinionated input. They're all empirical data from tournament success.


Brawl tiers are leading statistics, that are accurate to a T to any situation.

Now opinions, however, aren't lost, they get migrated into the Match-Ups, where debates break out on win-loss ratios.

Which is why more good Samus' need to enter tournaments. >: |

[Sunny]

Everyone agrees yoshi can be higher tier because of how similar his playstyle is too wario whos like way up there. Unfortunately the yoshi community is made up of like...10 yoshi players total. :V

[KrayzeeGuy]

Originally Posted by Sunny

Everyone agrees yoshi can be higher tier because of how similar his playstyle is too wario whos like way up there. Unfortunately the yoshi community is made up of like...10 yoshi players total. :V

Oh HELL yes, Yoshi is a very viable character that is only gimped by a small set of characters. The thing is, that small set of characters are very common in the tournament field, and if a Yoshi player isn't in top form on the tournament day, they won't be able to rack up as many points for Yoshi.


The largest reason the tier list stays at the same amount it usually does for top-dog is because of the number of users per character. If you go down on the tier list, you naturally see a decrease of usage, why? Because most official tournaments have money or a prize, and loads of tournament goers change their character to have the best odds in the match-ups. That usually implies Metaknight and Snake.

[LiteTheIronMan]

I love how the tier list differs by region: Japan plays characters better than the US. Having said that Samus is still very low on a tierscale in Japan... ;~;

[KrayzeeGuy]

Originally Posted by LiteTheIronMan

I love how the tier list differs by region: Japan plays characters better than the US. Having said that Samus is still very low on a tierscale in Japan... ;~;

The tier list only differs by region because tournaments are counted by region-only. So more or less, you're just seeing a different speed of the same data.

[Kirby-Chan]

Hmmm looking at the current tier list Zelda has moved 9 places down and at the bottom. I don't think Zelda is really that bad. Her aerial attacks are strong but you have to sweetspot. Her smashes are laggy but are powerful and has a reflecter. She is a light character and her air speed is 14th place tied with Lucario, Samus, and Charizard.

What cause Zelda's place to go down dramatically? Beside the fact low tier characters are rarely use for tournaments in favors for high tiers characters. Sheik has place higher than Zelda and is faster and weaker than her. It's similer to Zero Suit Samus and Samus. Zero Suit Samus is weaker and faster character and place a higher place than Samus.

[KrayzeeGuy]

Originally Posted by Kirby-Chan

Hmmm looking at the current tier list Zelda has moved 9 places down and at the bottom. I don't think Zelda is really that bad. Her aerial attacks are strong but you have to sweetspot. Her smashes are laggy but are powerful and has a reflecter. She is a light character and her air speed is 14th place tied with Lucario, Samus, and Charizard.

What cause Zelda's place to go down dramatically? Beside the fact low tier characters are rarely use for tournaments in favors for high tiers characters. Sheik has place higher than Zelda and is faster and weaker than her. It's similer to Zero Suit Samus and Samus. Zero Suit Samus is weaker and faster character and place a higher place than Samus.

This is a common misconception about the Brawl tier list. There is no other factor but numbers that deal with the list. There are no opinions that move the tier list, only hard numbers from tournament results.

[Sunny]

Originally Posted by Kirby-Chan

Hmmm looking at the current tier list Zelda has moved 9 places down and at the bottom. I don't think Zelda is really that bad. Her aerial attacks are strong but you have to sweetspot. Her smashes are laggy but are powerful and has a reflecter. She is a light character and her air speed is 14th place tied with Lucario, Samus, and Charizard.

What cause Zelda's place to go down dramatically? Beside the fact low tier characters are rarely use for tournaments in favors for high tiers characters. Sheik has place higher than Zelda and is faster and weaker than her. It's similer to Zero Suit Samus and Samus. Zero Suit Samus is weaker and faster character and place a higher place than Samus.

Im not sure if this is right, but I think its because anyone who plays defensively beats her. All of her attacks are so amazing that she doesn't need any combos, but if there shielded shes a sitting duck. She just doesn't have many shield poking abilitys. Her recovery isn't that good either. Zelda still a very awesome character though being able to reflect projectiles and having extremely strong kill moves for a light weight.