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  #1  
Old September 16, 2010, 04:42:23 PM
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Default Pokemon B/W metagame discussion

Well well wellll~!

The stats of all the newly revealed B/W pokemon have finally been released so I think its about time to start discussing which new pokemon will kick ass, and which will be...suckish. :V

All the stats of each pokemons final forms can be seen here http://www.serebii.net/blackwhite/pokemon.shtml

All the new abilities gained from the dream world can be seen here http://www.serebii.net/blackwhite/dr...bilities.shtml
Lets get started. =w=

Shes special bulky with a pretty good hp stat and normal/psychic typing. She has a high 128 special attack stat and is as quick as lucario WITH the ability serene grace. I'd have to see here moveset, but that seems pretty broken already. Easily top of OU tier.



140 attack, 95 speed. OH DEAR GOD. ;~; I can see this thinking wrecking entire teams. Fire typing my hinder it a little though. Lets hope he doesn't get something like sword dance or agility. Otherwise hes OU. A choice scarf would probably go well with this guy.




EEEE~! My cute lil dragon kicks ass~! <3
147 attack and 97 speed with pure dragon typing. Paper thin defense stats though. I'd assume he'll get dragon dance as a move, which would just put him over the top as a sweeper, but I think his poor defense stats will keep him out of UBER. I hope. ;~;

Last edited by Sunny; September 17, 2010 at 03:04:09 PM.
  #2  
Old September 16, 2010, 04:51:31 PM
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#563 Desukan

Ok this thing is destined to be in OU. 58/145/105 are AMAZING defenses, outclassing Rotom-A in both defenses, and Dusknoir in terms of Defense. It also has more HP. Unless it doesn't get any good moves, this will be the premier spinblocker.

#567 Aakeosu

140 Attack and 110 Speed good enough for you? I hope so. "Weak-Kneed" sounds like its going to completely screw over this Pokemon, like half its Speed or something, but it still has that sexy Attack stat...

#526 Gigaiasu

Base 135 Attack and 130 Defense is incredible, and best of all, it has 25 Speed. Slower than a Snowlax! Ladies and gentleman, I think we have a Trick Room abuser in the makings...

#609 Shanderaa

Hey look a Fire-type that's weak to Stealth Rock. Better prepare to be sent to NU buddy... ohwait hang on a second it has Flash Fire and base 145 Sp.Atk and a decent 80 Speed. Choice Scarf abuse much? Plus its a Ghost, so more likely than not it will be able to Trick the Scarf on to something like Blissey. Its like the Heatran of Gen. 5!

#594 Mamanbou

165 HP stat say what? With Hydration as well, this thing can take a nap in the rain and wake up the very next turn. 80/45 are horrific defensive stats, but you don't need to take many hits when you can restore all your health at once...

AND NOW THE KING OF THEM ALL

#589 Shubarugo

135 Attack. 70/105/105 defenses. Bug/Steel typing. Ladies and gentleman, this thing will go on rampages. It won't perform much like Scizor, but if this thing launches off an X-Scissor it will HURT. And trying to take it down without Fire will be extremely tricky. 20 Speed also lets it have fun in Trick Room. Something tells me that move may be a bit more popular this Generation.

Last edited by Alakazamaster; September 16, 2010 at 04:56:17 PM.
  #3  
Old September 16, 2010, 05:38:48 PM
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Well what about these?

#500 Enbuoo he is just TOO slow he's easily getting outclassed by Infernape with its low deffenses.
WHEN WILL THIS TREND END!?


#530 Doryuuzu - It's a great pokemon with a good type coverage and great attack and modertly good speed.


#573 Chirachiino : If it gets a good moveset with technician I think it might replace Ambipom.


#635 Savando: It's a special attacker and pysdo, if it ends up with a move set like dragonite it could eventually turn uber.

  #4  
Old September 17, 2010, 03:07:41 AM
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Spoiler Alert:    

This thing is going to either UU or NU.


UU most probably. It can be dangerous in Trick Room though.


I just have some hope for this thing to survive in OU.


OU for sure. Its defenses are good. Its speed is also good, and it has 100 base attack. With its ability, it can be really monstrous in Sandstorm teams.

The three monkeys seem to have good speed and attack. I still can't decide yet.


A BL most probably, if not UU.


Its ability and stats will make it a good OU Pokémon.


UU/NU, but dangerous in Trick Room.


OU, and will be used in every Sand Storm team.


I am not really sure if this is our new Machamp.


With its ability, it is going to be one of the very best revenge killers in OU.


Again, OU.


It has got a chance I believe.


Our new Dusknoir.


OU, if not Uber.


This thing is a must when it comes to Trick Room. Outside it, it is NU.


It has very good defenses, but but typing. I don't know.


It is definitely OU.


OU I believe, especially with a Choice Scarf to boost its speed a bit.


I just hope this doesn't become an Uber.


This one should be a BL.


Both of them are BL.


It is going to be OU.


It is very good in both Special Defense and Special Attack. Possibly an OU, but it is incredibly weak to rock.

Last edited by The Spirit of Time; September 17, 2010 at 03:15:41 AM.
  #5  
Old September 17, 2010, 09:51:28 AM
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I agree with most of the stuff which you guys posted. In spite of that, I'm going to repeat some Pokémon to elaborate on them furthermore:



Most probably OU (unless its movepool hinders it). Defenses are acceptable (75/63/63), Attack is pretty decent (100), and Speed is amazing (116). Add Motor Drive to that, and you get a REALLY fast, physical sweeper.


Talk about Snorlax or Rhyperior being slow! This thing has less HP, Attack and Speed, but has better Special Defense than the latter. I think that under Trick Room, it will be a beast. But outside it, I highly doubt it will be placed in a tier other than NU or even UU if it's lucky.


One of my favourites. Favourable typing, awesome abilities and generally good stats (especially that attack) makes it an ideal choice for an OU Sandstorm team.


This thing looks a bit ugly, but it has got Swift Swim. Stat-wise, it is essentially a weaker Kingdra. Plus, its typing is not exactly favourable; while it provides a valuable immunity to Electric attacks, Grass Knot is pretty common in the metagame. I'm not sure what its tier will be; it seems a bit weak for OU, but also a little strong for UU (or is it not?).


75/75/75 defenses aren't so bad, and 125 Attack + 85 Speed is certainly not something minor. Since Psychic is not a good type offensively, and since Flying is not very prominent, I think it fits well in the OU tier.

(That's it for now. I'll be posting more analysis later on, though.)

Oh, and by the way, so far we don't know if Stealth Rock is still in the 5th generation. Apparently, it got replaced by a new TM called Bug Resistance, and since we only have an incomplete, preliminary list of TMs now, there's a possibility that it got re-numbered. We still don't know if some Pokémon are able to learn it by leveling up, etc, and we're unaware if we can transfer Pokémon who know Stealth Rock from a 4th generation game. So for now, Stealth Rock's future remains a mystery. What do you think of that? How will the metagame change if Stealth Rock was removed?

To be honest, I think that Ice, Fire and Flying Pokémon are pretty broken to Stealth Rock. It's a powerful entry hazard and all, but I wish there was more limitations to it (like weakening its effect a bit). I know that if it goes, those annoying Sashes will become twice as much popular, but the major changes which SR did to many Pokémon seem a little too far for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post

I am not really sure if this is our new Machamp.

It overpowers Machamp in all stats except for Special Defense (-20 points) and Speed (-10 points).


It has got a chance I believe.

I think it only has one weakness to Flying, which is not a prominent type in OU anyways. So the possibility is pretty good.


It is very good in both Special Defense and Special Attack. Possibly an OU, but it is incredibly weak to rock.

Read what I wrote about Stealth Rock above.

Last edited by Shadow; September 17, 2010 at 01:46:36 PM.
  #6  
Old September 17, 2010, 12:00:01 PM
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Spirit, could you maybe say why you think some Pokemon will be where they are? I disagree with you on some points and you don't say a whole lot...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
Spoiler Alert:    

This thing is going to either UU or NU.


UU most probably. It can be dangerous in Trick Room though.


I just have some hope for this thing to survive in OU.

I see this thing more as BL or even UU. It is good at most things, but it doesn't really excel at much. Its just kinda outclassed by other Water-types like Gyarados for physical attacking, Empoleon for Special attacker and wall, Swampert for physical walling, and Vaporeon for giant sponge.


OU for sure. Its defenses are good. Its speed is also good, and it has 100 base attack. With its ability, it can be really monstrous in Sandstorm teams.

The three monkeys seem to have good speed and attack. I still can't decide yet.


A BL most probably, if not UU.


Its ability and stats will make it a good OU Pokémon.

Its kinda like Electivire, only with lower stats everywhere except for speed, and presumably it will have a smaller movepool (I don't see this thing with Earthquake, Cross Chop, Flamethrower, or Ice Punch.) Plus, Electivire isn't even that great in the first place. I see this fellow in UU.


UU/NU, but dangerous in Trick Room.


OU, and will be used in every Sand Storm team.


I am not really sure if this is our new Machamp.


With its ability, it is going to be one of the very best revenge killers in OU.


Again, OU.


It has got a chance I believe.

I also believe it! 115 Sp.Def and the chance of getting Bulk Up? Not bad at all. 90 Attack is doable after some Bulk Up boosts.


Our new Dusknoir.


OU, if not Uber.

Uber may be a bit much for a Pokemon with terrible defenses and bad typing that prevents it from coming in on much anything (no one uses Psychic or Zen Headbutt very often.) It could be OU, but the fact that it can't take a hit at all is troubling.


This thing is a must when it comes to Trick Room. Outside it, it is NU.


It has very good defenses, but but typing. I don't know.


It is definitely OU.


OU I believe, especially with a Choice Scarf to boost its speed a bit.


I just hope this doesn't become an Uber.


This one should be a BL.


Both of them are BL.


It is going to be OU.


It is very good in both Special Defense and Special Attack. Possibly an OU, but it is incredibly weak to rock.

Probably not going to crack OU. Bug/Fire means many Dragons come in on you, and Stealth Rock is a pain. Kinda like with Moltres in UU...
And to Shadow, I never really considered Stealth Rock going out of business. They've never gotten rid of a move before... and moves that have been edited have been edited only slightly, like accuracy, base power, or a few effects.

Last edited by Alakazamaster; September 17, 2010 at 12:09:22 PM.
  #7  
Old September 17, 2010, 01:52:01 PM
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Wowowow.
Zoroark is far from uber.

His stats are just like lucarios, only slightly quicker with better offensive abilities. His typing is also kinda crappy. I see him being used as an anti-lead though because of his ability.

Speaking of lucario, in the new generation he gets the ability earthquake spiral and justice heart.

No clue what justice heart does but earthquake spiral gives you an attack boost for each pokemon you KO. This along with his steel typing to resist sandstorm and stealth rock insures him a spot in OU again next gen~! <3

Also....
Hihidaruma has a second form. O_O The sprite hasn't been revealed for it, but its fire/psychic type with the ability "Daruma mode." It gets slower with 55 speed, but over 100 in each of its base stats. Also instead of 140 base attack it now has 140 base special attack.

Last edited by Sunny; September 17, 2010 at 01:52:40 PM.
  #8  
Old September 17, 2010, 03:05:54 PM
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Double post derp
Link to the new abilities gained from dream world have been added to the first post.

With that said
BLAZIKEN GETS SPEED BOOST
BLAZIKEN GETS SPEED BOOST
BLAZIKEN GETS SPEED BOOST
EEE~!
Infernape was just 1up'd

Last edited by Sunny; September 17, 2010 at 03:06:08 PM.
  #9  
Old September 17, 2010, 03:07:32 PM
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New abilities~! Time to say thing!

Venusaur with Chlorophyll: I'm just going to say this now. Torrent, Blaze, and Overgrow suck for the most part. Now that that is out of the way I can talk about Venusaur. ^_^

Chlorophyll is... wow. Anyone who has played UU knows that Venusaur + Arcanine is a dynamic duo, and with the two together in the sun they can spread some hell. Maybe even get thrown into BL.

Clefable with Unaware: Dear god this is going to be hell. In one turn, Clefable's Calm Mind will get +2 Sp.Atk and +2 Sp.Def. Sure this is the only usable stat-raising move the pixie gets, but it makes it an instant tank that can rip teams apart (maybe).

Ninetales with Drought: Is it just me, or does Gen 5. circle around weather alot? Ninetales is the only Pokemon besides Groudon to summon the sun, meaning that it will be used a lot, I predict. It can't do much on its own, but getting unlimited sun is nice.

Golduck with Swift Swim: Golduck should make a decent UU Siwft Swimmer. 82 Attack and 95 Sp.Atk is really not terrible for UU Pokemon, and it has moves like Cross Chop, Waterfall, Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, Surf, and Ice Beam to mix and match as needed.

Alakazam with Magic Guard: How did you not expect me to comment on this? Magic Guard is a great ability, and is exactly what the doctor called for Alakazam. Hell, Alakazam may even be able to run a Focus Sash outside of the lead position since it doesn't fear weather or entry hazard. I don't know how it will be used, but its a pretty nice ability to get.

Jynx with Dry Skin: Fairly minor, but its nice. Water immunities kick ass, and it makes switching in on Water-types a far easier task who will struggle to do damage with Ice Beam, a common move bulky waters run with their now useless Surf.

Vaporeon with Hydration: This will be fun on a Rain Team. It can rest in the rain and be brought to full HP, then wake up right then! Wish may still be better, though, to help the team.

Flareon with Guts: *grins from ear to ear* Looks like the worst Eeveelution ever got a new toy to play with. Its physical moves may be limited, mind you, but now they'll pack a bit more punch. NU may still be its fate, but its nice that Game Freak is actually trying.

Typhlosion with Flash Fire: Can you say UU? Picture Typhlosion coming in on a Fire Blast under Sunny Day, and launching off a full HP Eruption... this will be fun.

Politoed with Drizzle: The only Pokemon that can summon rain... looks like this thing may find some more usage.

Quagsire with Unaware: This thing can use Curse, Amnesia, and Recover you know... yeah, just throwing that out there...

Entei/Suicune/Raikou with Flash Fire/Water Absorb/Volt Absorb: This means more usage for all of them. Finally that weird Pressure fetish is gone...

Blaziken with Speed Boost: Infernape, you have some competition. Blaziken will now be as fast as you, so look out.

Armaldo with Swift Swim: Another cool Swift Swimmer to join Kabutops and Omastar. with access to Swords Dance, you had better look out.

Milotic with Cute Charm: Milotic just become MORE annoying! People will not like having to use physical moves against a Pokemon that could easily incapacitate you.

Staraptor with Reckless: Can you say OU? This thing can now fire off Double-Edges and Brave Birds without a care in the world.

Garchomp with Rough Skin: Aw great, Garchomp got even BETTER. This thing could easily stay placed in Ubers, but who knows?

AND NOW THE BEST OF THEM ALL

Gliscor with Poison Heal: Breloom was bad enough, and now he have a very physically bulky that is restoring tons of health every turn... I hope that Politoed and a Swift Swimmer will destroy this thing quickly...
  #10  
Old September 17, 2010, 03:49:30 PM
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Seaking just got... Lightningrod? This way, in case they select the wrong pokemon, it will still go to you.

And... the first pure flying type- Torunerosu is awesome. He has Amazing attacking stats, and really good speed, he could easily be a mix'd sweeper, or something.

Also I saw several pokemon with unburden, namely hitmonlee... Imagine it coming in, flinging either light ball, or substituting down, and then sweeping? It could be epic.

Sharpedo gets speed boost too... This could get interesting with the new speed boosters...

The other thing I'm scared about is weavile's not yet found out ability...
  #11  
Old September 17, 2010, 04:15:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serenade View Post
Seaking just got... Lightningrod? This way, in case they select the wrong pokemon, it will still go to you.
Oh dear god I must have missed that. XD That's awful.

Its like how Delibird got Insomnia... which would be useful if its original ability wasn't Vital Spirit, which is the exact same thing.
  #12  
Old September 17, 2010, 06:10:06 PM
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Hey kazzy.
Unaware doesn't boost stats double, it ignores all stat changes completely. :< Simple is the one that boost em.

Other then that, AWWWW YEA POLITOED~! So glad hes useful now. I really do think those guys are cute. :> Oh also lickilcky got cloud 9 which stops all weather completely. With the new weather based teams that are sure to show up, i'll find alot more use for my licki other then countering and exploding~! <3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serenade View Post
The other thing I'm scared about is weavile's not yet found out ability...
Oh, I really hope its something useful. Although I was hoping for technician...Oh well. Anythings better then pressure. >_>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serenade View Post
Seaking just got... Lightningrod? This way, in case they select the wrong pokemon, it will still go to you.
There showing how useful it is when you AIM FOR THE HORN!

Last edited by Sunny; September 17, 2010 at 06:10:48 PM.
  #13  
Old September 17, 2010, 06:10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny View Post
Hey kazzy.
Unaware doesn't boost stats double, it ignores all stat changes completely. :< Simple is the one that boost em.
  #14  
Old September 17, 2010, 06:15:54 PM
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  #15  
Old September 17, 2010, 06:26:02 PM
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I don't follow competitive play, but I'm glad you all think Hihidaruma's going to OU.
  #16  
Old September 17, 2010, 06:34:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sableyed View Post
I don't follow competitive play, but I'm glad you all think Hihidaruma's going to OU.
Daruma Mode seems better than Hihidaruma. I mean, 140 Special with solid 105/105/105 defenses? Better than a fast and frail Pokemon that dies to a Water Gun...
  #17  
Old September 18, 2010, 04:13:47 AM
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Both the Daruma are quite good, and support their role effectively. What I am shocked about is Garchomp. Seriously, Rough Skin is too much for him. It will be too dangerous to get any physical contact from this guy, so he will be doomed to Ubers for sure. I also said that Zoroark would be Uber for the fact of its ability. It will be annoying and confusing as well. If not, then it is a very good sweeper as well. It might not have the best typing, but both its Attack and Special Attack, along with Speed are excellent for both Anti-Lead and MixSeeper. I am also glad with the new Pokémon that have Flash Fire, yet Heatran is still better than them, so I doubt that they will get a very significant increase of usage.
  #18  
Old September 18, 2010, 08:40:51 AM
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Time to analyze some of my favourite alternate abilities over here:

Poliwrath with Swift Swim: There is a good chance that this guy will become UU, since his typing provides it with valuable resistances against Dark, Rock, Ice, and Fire attacks. These are very common in the UU metagame. Poliwrath is essentially a bulkier, slightly weaker and slower version of Qwilfish. Swift Swim helps it to double its Speed in the rain, and with a wide movepool which includes Bulk Up, Encore and Belly Drum, this guy is sure to cause a lot of trouble.

Tentacruel with Rain Dish: Oh boy! Tentacruel is naturally bulky and has an array of valuable support moves for any team. However, with Rain Dish in its arsenal, Tentacruel becomes even tougher to take down in the rain.

Lanturn with Water Absorb: Both Volt Absorb and Water Absorb are very useful abilities, so it's going to be hard for the opponent to attack Lanturn without taking a risk.

Politoed with Drizzle: FINALLY a Pokémon who has Drizzle other than Kyogre! But the downfall is that Politoed, being a NU Pokémon, has average stats all around and a slightly limited movepool. However, I'm sure it will jump from NU to... UU or even OU!

Breloom with Technician: Say hello to Scizor's new brother! Breloom has a monstrous attack coupled with powerful moves like Swords Dance, Substitute and Spore. With Technician and STAB, Mach Punch, Force Palm and Drain Punch become extremely powerful attacks.

Now, let's discuss some more 5th generation Pokémon:

Burunkeru

With immunities to Normal, Fighting and Water as well as great defenses (100/70/105), this thing is surely going to become a good support Pokémon. Although its Speed (60) is mediocre and its Special Attack (85) is not something major, it can still give off some respectable attacks. It also has access to Recover, which makes it a bulky tank able to quickly restore HP. Overall, it's either going to be placed in OU (if it gets more support moves) or UU.

Shanderaa

Sporting the highest Special Attack of any non-legendary (145) with decent defenses (60/90/90) and an acceptable Speed stat (80), Shanderaa is unquestionably going to be placed in OU. Flash Fire makes it even more powerful, and with access to moves like Will-O-Wisp, Memento, Curse and Pain Split, it is sure to become a top-tier Pokémon.

Last edited by Shadow; October 10, 2010 at 10:22:53 AM.
  #19  
Old September 22, 2010, 12:52:13 PM
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I found out a new move kazzy might like called "Guard share"
Lemme copy pasty the description.
"With psychic abilities it adds together the defense and special defense of it and the opponent and then divided them in half"

So lets say this was used on the opponents shuckle. You would be able to take away half of its defense and add it too your own.

Alakazam gets this move, which can greatly help him from being walled. This along with the move recovery, and his new ability magic guard can potentially turn him into a mini-tank.

EDIT: Oh oh! Heres another that alakazam gets through TM.
"Psycho shock"
Its a special psychic move with 80 base power.
Despite this being a special move, when it hits the opponent it is counted as a physical one. This move can help make alakazam a mix'd sweeper while only using his special attack stat. Why didn't weavile get awesome stuff like this? ._.

EDIT2: Well weavile did get one move change. Beat up. Apparently its base power has been turned to 1 instead of 10 per hit implying that there is now a hidden factor to the amount of damage per hit. It has yet to be tested yet so no information has been revealed. Hopefully this is something weavile will be able to make use of.

Last edited by Sunny; September 22, 2010 at 01:00:00 PM.
  #20  
Old September 22, 2010, 10:23:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow View Post

Politoed with Drizzle: FINALLY a Pokémon who has Drizzle other than Kyogre! But the downfall is that Politoed, being a NU Pokémon, has average stats all around and a slightly limited movepool. However, I'm sure it will jump from NU to... UU or even OU!
Does that mean Ninetales will rise in tiers now that it has Drought?

Also, am I the only one who thinks telepathy is a GREAT ability for double and triple battles? It makes it much easier to use Gardevoir on a team I'm planning.

Also excited for Speed Boost Blaziken, Encourage Feraligatr, Harvest Tropius and Mischievous Heart Sableye.
  #21  
Old September 22, 2010, 11:24:33 PM
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Ninetales with Drought
Saves a move spot for sunny day. His attack will be powerful and solar beam will not have to be charged. Ninetales from dream world will be great!

Exeggutor with Harvest
This is the most awesome ability ever. Give it the berry that makes it more strong against fire moves and it loses one of its weaknesses!!

Seaking with Lightningrod
I laughed when I saw this. Gives it complete immunity to electricity. Gives your team complete immunity.

Altaria with Cloud Nine
Hail is often used against Altaria. This eliminates its effect.

Tropius with Harvest
Same as Exeggutor. But with ice.

Hihidaruma with Daruma Mode
It's stats increase wildly with this ability.

Dasutodasu with Aftermath
Every time your garbage bag dies, your opponent takes some decent damage. I think he will be rather good with this ability.
  #22  
Old September 23, 2010, 06:28:27 AM
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Let me analyze one of my favourite Water Pokémon of this generation, Kerudio:

Name: Kerudio
Pokédex entry: #647
Type: Water/Fight
Ability: Justice Heart - Attack is raised when hit by a Dark-type move. It is unknown if the Pokémon is immune to Dark-type attacks or not.

Base stats:
HP - 91
Attack - 72
Defense - 90
Special Attack - 129
Special Defense - 90
Speed - 108

Where do I start with this guy? 129 special attack is certainly nothing to laugh at, 108 Speed allows Kerudio to outspeed base 100 Pokémon without any speed investments, and 91/90/90 defenses are pretty decent for a sweeper. With access to boosting moves like Calm Mind, Cheer Up and Swords Dance, Kerudio can become a deadly physical, special AND even mixed sweeper. Let me do some further explanations on the physical and special side:

Special attack
A special attack of 129 is very impressive, and as if that wasn't enough, Kerudio has Calm Mind in its arsenal. Couple that with Hydro Pump and Focus Blast or Mystery Sword*, which provide an excellent combination of STAB moves together, and you get a devastating special sweeper which is fully capable of taking down unprepared teams by itself.

*: Mystery Sword:
Type: Fighting
Power: 85
Accuracy: 100
Type: Special
PP: 10
Effect: Uses the Pokémon special attack stat, but deals physical damage to the opponent.
In other words, this is the perfect solution for Blissey and the likes.

Attack
72 Attack + Swords Dance + Justice Heart + wide movepool = deadly physical sweeper. Imagine coming into a Dark-type attack which causes you to get a +1 attack boost, then using Swords Dance on the switch. You get an easy +3 boost, empowering a mediocre 72 attack to unbelievable heights. Having a great physical movepool which includes Aqua Tail, Close Combat, X-Scissor, Stone Edge and the classic Aqua Jet, there's no doubt that Kerudio will become a very fearsome physical sweeper.

As if all that doesn't sound broken already, a new item called Swimming Goggles has been introduced in Generation V. As reported, it increases speed and accuracy (not known by how much yet), and puts the user to sleep if it isn't a Water Pokémon. So this means that Kerudio's Hydro Pump, Stone Edge and Aqua Tail will hit more often, and its speed stat will become even more amazing. On top of that, if the opponent tries to act smart by using Trick on you, then that will put his Pokémon to sleep, enabling Kerudio to set up easily and wreck havoc all over the place!

EDIT: This item has been confirmed to be fake, so there's no need to mention it anymore.

So, in conclusion, Kerudio has numerous merits which will surely make it a top-tier threat. Unfortunately, this tier is probably not going to be OU; Kerudio, which has stats EXTREMELY close to Salamence, seems far too strong for OU play, so it will most likely be placed in the Uber tier. Nevertheless, it is still one heck of a crazy Pokémon!

Last edited by Shadow; October 10, 2010 at 10:29:48 AM.
  #23  
Old September 24, 2010, 08:59:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Let me analyze one of my favourite Water Pokémon of this generation, Kerudio:

Name: Kerudio
Pokédex entry: #647
Type: Water/Fight
Ability: Justice Heart - Attack is raised when hit by a Dark-type move. It is unknown if the Pokémon is immune to Dark-type attacks or not.

Base stats:
HP - 91
Attack - 72
Defense - 90
Special Attack - 129
Special Defense - 90
Speed - 108

Where do I start with this guy? 129 special attack is certainly nothing to laugh at, 108 Speed allows Kerudio to outspeed base 100 Pokémon without any speed investments, and 91/90/90 defenses are pretty decent for a sweeper. With access to boosting moves like Calm Mind, Cheer Up and Swords Dance, Kerudio can become a deadly physical, special AND even mixed sweeper. Let me do some further explanations on the physical and special side:

Special attack
A special attack of 129 is very impressive, and as if that wasn't enough, Kerudio has Calm Mind in its arsenal. Couple that with Hydro Pump and Focus Blast or Mystery Sword*, which provide an excellent combination of STAB moves together, and you get a devastating special sweeper which is fully capable of taking down unprepared teams by itself.

*: Mystery Sword:
Type: Fighting
Power: 85
Accuracy: 100
Type: Special
PP: 10
Effect: Uses the Pokémon special attack stat, but deals physical damage to the opponent.
In other words, this is the perfect solution for Blissey and the likes.

Attack
72 Attack + Swords Dance + Justice Heart + wide movepool = deadly physical sweeper. Imagine coming into a Dark-type attack which causes you to get a +1 attack boost, then using Swords Dance on the switch. You get an easy +3 boost, empowering a mediocre 72 attack to unbelievable heights. Having a great physical movepool which includes Aqua Tail, Close Combat, X-Scissor, Stone Edge and the classic Aqua Jet, there's no doubt that Kerudio will become a very fearsome physical sweeper.

As if all that doesn't sound broken already, a new item called Swimming Goggles has been introduced in Generation V. As reported, it increases speed and accuracy (not known by how much yet), and puts the user to sleep if it isn't a Water Pokémon. So this means that Kerudio's Hydro Pump, Stone Edge and Aqua Tail will hit more often, and its speed stat will become even more amazing. On top of that, if the opponent tries to act smart by using Trick on you, then that will put his Pokémon to sleep, enabling Kerudio to set up easily and wreck havoc all over the place!

So, in conclusion, Kerudio has numerous merits which will surely make it a top-tier threat. Unfortunately, this tier is probably not going to be OU; Kerudio, which has stats EXTREMELY close to Salamence, seems far too strong for OU play, so it will most likely be placed in the Uber tier. Nevertheless, it is still one heck of a crazy Pokémon!
Wow! He must be great in battle! It IS gonna be in the Uber tier. Shame it's an event pokemon

Last edited by Shadow; October 10, 2010 at 10:30:19 AM.
  #24  
Old September 24, 2010, 12:23:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RotomGuy View Post
Seaking with Lightningrod
I laughed when I saw this. Gives it complete immunity to electricity. Gives your team complete immunity.
Actually, it just draws in Electric moves. It doesn't make you immune to them. In other words, this is the stupidest ability Seaking could get.
  #25  
Old September 24, 2010, 12:25:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakazamaster View Post
Actually, it just draws in Electric moves. It doesn't make you immune to them. In other words, this is the stupidest ability Seaking could get.
Oh. Seaking is now terrible.
  #26  
Old October 4, 2010, 10:04:38 AM
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After trying some Pokémon out in the Alpha Testing of Pokémon (DISALLOWED), and checking a lot of competitive pages on Smogon Forums, I changed my opinion on a couple of Pokémon mentioned over here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny View Post

Shes special bulky with a pretty good hp stat and normal/psychic typing. She has a high 128 special attack stat and is as quick as lucario WITH the ability serene grace. I'd have to see here moveset, but that seems pretty broken already. Easily top of OU tier.

Unfortunately, two of the major downfalls of this Pokémon is that it doesn't have any reliable recovery move besides Rest, and that a move called "Ancient Song" needs to be used to change it into its other forme. This means that you'll have to waste a whole moveslot for that.


EEEE~! My cute lil dragon kicks ass~! <3
147 attack and 97 speed with pure dragon typing. Paper thin defense stats though. I'd assume he'll get dragon dance as a move, which would just put him over the top as a sweeper, but I think his poor defense stats will keep him out of UBER. I hope. ;~;

I've tried using this guy in the the testing, and he can easily be revenge killed due to his low defenses. Also, his movepool isn't as wide as the other Dragons, which makes him fairly predictable. Lastly, 97 speed is a trollish number making many Pokémon outpace him, which is a great hindrance. It is definitely not going to be banished to the Uber tier, that's for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Shanderaa

Sporting the highest Special Attack of any non-legendary (145) with decent defenses (60/90/90) and an acceptable Speed stat (80), Shanderaa is unquestionably going to be placed in OU. Flash Fire makes it even more powerful, and with access to moves like Will-O-Wisp, Memento, Curse and Pain Split, it is sure to become a top-tier Pokémon.

I guess there was so much over-hype about Shanderaa that it turned out to be a bit underwhelming. It's still a good Pokémon, but it is definitely not broken. It's base 80 speed is often its biggest problem, and its typing doesn't really help, either. Also, popular Pokémon like Heatran often completely wall Shanderaa, making it even harder for it to survive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
As if all that doesn't sound broken already, a new item called Swimming Goggles has been introduced in Generation V. As reported, it increases speed and accuracy (not known by how much yet), and puts the user to sleep if it isn't a Water Pokémon. So this means that Kerudio's Hydro Pump, Stone Edge and Aqua Tail will hit more often, and its speed stat will become even more amazing. On top of that, if the opponent tries to act smart by using Trick on you, then that will put his Pokémon to sleep, enabling Kerudio to set up easily and wreck havoc all over the place!

It turned out that the so-called"Swimming Goggles" was fake, as it does not exist in the games. All mentions of it has been removed in Smogon forums, which confirms that it is fake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakazamaster
Actually, it just draws in Electric moves. It doesn't make you immune to them. In other words, this is the stupidest ability Seaking could get.
You couldn't be more wrong. According to Smogon Forums, Lightningrod got a change in its effect: it now will absorb Electric-type attacks and also increase special attack by one stage. (This is NOT 100% confirmed yet). So, in other words, Seaking might only be left with one weakness to Grass, which doesn't make it THAT much of a joke anymore.

I will be analyzing some more extremely common Pokémon (from what I saw in the testing) in the next few days. Expect mentions of Erufuun and Nattorei primarily.

Last edited by Shadow; October 4, 2010 at 11:08:44 AM.
  #27  
Old October 10, 2010, 10:36:01 AM
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See this Pokemon? Looks like Forretress, Skarmory, and Bronzong have some company as supporting Steel-types in Nattorei!

HP: 74
Atk: 94
Def: 131
Sp.Atk: 54
Sp.Def: 116
Spd: 20

With 74/131/116 defenses and amazing typing, not a whole lot is going to be OHKOing you. And with a support movepool that can accomplish pretty much anything a team could want, this guy is definitely going to be seeing lots of early use during the first stages of the B/W metagame.

Noteworthy Moves: Leech Seed, Spikes, Thunderwave, Gravity, Toxic, Gyro Ball, Power Whip, Curse.

Nattorei really is a hybrid between Forretress and Celebi. Nattorei takes the best qualities out of these two Pokemon which essentially allows it to fit most any supporting role on a team, and the unpredictability of what set it is running only adds to his usability. ParaSeeder? Spikes support? A foe making a bad choice could easily spell doom for them. As such, two sets quickly come to mind for this guy:

Nattorei
Sassy
Leftovers
252 HP / 60 Def / 196 Sp.Def
0 Spd IVs
~Spikes
~Power Whip
~Gyro Ball
~Thunder Wave / Toxic

Essentially, a Spiker that can take most hits from both ends. Taunt isn't a huge issue as long as it isn't coming from Skarmory, because Gyro Ball WILL hurt coming off of a Speed stat lower than Snorlax's. Explosion isn't listed because it has been completely butchered this generation, as it no longer halves the foe's Defenses before you use it, meaning it will do an unsatisfyingly low amount of damage. Nattorei also has the ability to be a SubSeeder of sorts.

Nattorei
Sassy
Leftovers
252 HP / 60 Def / 196 Sp.Def
0 Spd IVs
~Leech Seed
~Substitute
~Toxic
~Gyro Ball

This set attempts to stall out foes through a lethal combination of Leech Seed and Toxic, and Gyro Ball keeps you from being Taunted to death. The first set is probably a better option, but this set can still prove lethal enough with Wish support and some of the bulkier Pokemon out of the way.

Problems with Nattorei: A 4x Fire weakness, which makes Heatran, Shandera, Infernape, Blaziken, and pretty much any other Fire-type home free and able to set up. Substitute Heatran laughs at Nattorei as loudly as one can laugh. Nattorei also lacks any recovery outside of Rest, and that simply isn't an option. As such, Vaporeon or Blissey will pretty much be necessary for Wish support. Finally, Nattorei is set-up bait for Lucario, since getting up Leech Seed doesn't much matter when your fighting a Lucario that is getting up Swords Dances like mad.

Final Words: In the Ubers environment Nattorei will have troubles with the shockingly high amount of Fire-type moves, but once things start settling down he will find himself proving more useful to teams. Such support moves and defenses are simply too good to miss!
  #28  
Old October 10, 2010, 11:22:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakazamaster View Post


See this Pokemon? Looks like Forretress, Skarmory, and Bronzong have some company as supporting Steel-types in Nattorei!

HP: 74
Atk: 94
Def: 131
Sp.Atk: 54
Sp.Def: 116
Spd: 20

With 74/131/116 defenses and amazing typing, not a whole lot is going to be OHKOing you. And with a support movepool that can accomplish pretty much anything a team could want, this guy is definitely going to be seeing lots of early use during the first stages of the B/W metagame.

Indeed. Its typing, arguably one of the best in the game, gives it resistances to Dark, Dragon, Electric, Ghost, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water and Grass, which are common types in the standard metagame. Add that to very solid defenses, and you get the reason why I saw Nattorei on 90% of the teams when I was testing the new metagame!

Noteworthy Moves: Leech Seed, Spikes, Thunderwave, Gravity, Toxic, Gyro Ball, Power Whip, Curse, Explosion, Seed Bomb, Stealth Rock.

Nattorei really is a hybrid between Forretress and Celebi. Nattorei takes the best qualities out of these two Pokemon which essentially allows it to fit most any supporting role on a team, and the unpredictability of what set it is running only adds to his usability. ParaSeeder? Spikes support? A foe making a bad choice could easily spell doom for them.

Problems with Nattorei: A 4x Fire weakness, which makes Heatran, Shandera, Infernape, Blaziken, and pretty much any other Fire-type home free and able to set up. Substitute Heatran laughs at Nattorei as loudly as one can laugh. Nattorei also lacks any recovery outside of Rest, and that simply isn't an option. As such, Vaporeon or Blissey will pretty much be necessary for Wish support. Finally, Nattorei is set-up bait for Lucario, since getting up Leech Seed doesn't much matter when your fighting a Lucario that is getting up Swords Dances like mad.

As such, pairing Nattorei with Burunkeru or Shandera can make a very deadly duo, as the former is resistant to Fire and immune to Fighting, whereas the latter is immune to Fire and Fighting. It's also interesting to note that Burunkeru and Nattorei cover every type in the game together aside from Rock and Ground, which can be easily covered by many Pokémon.

Final Words: In the Ubers environment Nattorei will have troubles with the shockingly high amount of Fire-type moves (don't forget Kyogre, who makes an excellent partner for Nattorei in the Uber environment due to the rain), but once things start settling down he will find himself proving more useful to teams. Such support moves and defenses are simply too good to miss!
I added a couple of stuff which were missing in your analysis. I'm really sure Nattorei is going to be a top-tier Pokémon.

Last edited by Shadow; October 10, 2010 at 11:23:36 AM.
  #29  
Old October 10, 2010, 11:31:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakazamaster View Post
Actually, it just draws in Electric moves. It doesn't make you immune to them. In other words, this is the stupidest ability Seaking could get.
I think I read something that contradicts that. It's a new part of the ability in Gen V
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulbapedia
Generation V

Along with its previous effects, Lightningrod also gives Pokémon immunity to all Electric-type attacks and raises the Pokémon's Special Attack by one stage whenever they are hit by one. If the Pokémon is Ground-type, its type-granted immunity will take place before the activation of the ability's new effect and the Special Attack will not be raised.
So it's not as useless as it seems on Seaking.
  #30  
Old October 10, 2010, 04:10:17 PM
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So seaking only has one weakness, and gets a special attack boost from electricity?
My god...is seaking actually...USEFUL NOW?!
I can't except such a thing. D:
  #31  
Old October 11, 2010, 06:39:02 AM
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It is now confirmed that Dream World abilities are breed-able. That just means that we can get all those nice abilities with the IVs and natures we want!
  #32  
Old October 11, 2010, 07:00:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny View Post
So seaking only has one weakness, and gets a special attack boost from electricity?
My god...is seaking actually...USEFUL NOW?!
I can't except such a thing. D:
I don't really think it will be THAT useful now, even after the addition of Lightningrod (the special attack boost is useless, since Seaking's attack is way higher). It has average stats all around, and its only usable moves are Agility, Aqua Ring, Aqua Tail, Megahorn, Poison Jab, Rain Dance, Substitute and Waterfall (italicized moves are the only ones which are found on sets in Smogon). Compared to many other Water-type Pokémon which are commonly used, this moveset is not really varied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
It is now confirmed that Dream World abilities are breed-able. That just means that we can get all those nice abilities with the IVs and natures we want!
That's really good news, but it's going to be a bit harder trying to catch a female Pokémon in the Dream World, then breeding continuously until you get the right nature and ability. However, that will only make it more rewarding.

Last edited by Shadow; October 12, 2010 at 10:07:46 AM.
  #33  
Old October 11, 2010, 12:51:54 PM
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Meh, at least Goldeen is going to have a better time in Little Cup with Lightningrod giving it a hardy immunity. It makes Elekid a less fantastic threat to Rain Dance teams, so Goldeen may see a little more usage than Omanyte, even.
  #34  
Old October 13, 2010, 04:59:49 PM
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Double post just to tell you that the latest version of Pokemon (DISALLOWED) has GENERATION FIVE POKEMON. I'm making a team right now, so expect lots of updates that are more than speculation!
  #35  
Old October 14, 2010, 07:53:08 AM
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I would that Kaz.
Please tell us a lot about what you find.

Regarding Seaking's new ability; Lightningrod adds to its special attack, while Seaking has a better attack stat, and better physical moves. Even if it gets an immunity to electric moves, the increase to its special attack isn't that great or useful.
  #36  
Old October 14, 2010, 09:31:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakazamaster View Post
Double post just to tell you that the latest version of Pokemon (DISALLOWED) has GENERATION FIVE POKEMON. I'm making a team right now, so expect lots of updates that are more than speculation!
I reckon you weren't around when Gen V testing was going on? It was held on Pokémon (DISALLOWED), and you could try the new metagame with all the 649 Pokémon. That is how I posted a lot of information in my previous post(s).
Anyways, now that Gen V has been fully established, I think the information provided will definitely be more reliable. *Rushes to start planning a new team*

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
I would that Kaz.
Please tell us a lot about what you find.
Asking Kaz to post information when I used to tell you about the metagame changes, and you said you didn't care so much about it? I find that very strange.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, I promised a write-up on Erufuun, since it was, to my surprise, extremely common when I was doing the testing. Here it is:

Name: Erufuun
Pokédex entry: #547
Type: Grass
Ability: Mischevious Heart - Non-attacking moves have a higher priority (+1).

Base stats:
HP - 60
Attack - 67
Defense - 85
Special Attack - 77
Special Defense - 75
Speed - 116

You might think that such stats, excluding speed, make this guy a pretty mediocre Pokémon, but don't let that fool you. Sporting:

-an enormous base speed of 116,
-an excellent ability in Mischevious Heart,
-a very wide supporting movepool which includes Encore, Substitute, Leech Seed, Taunt, U-turn, Light Screen and Stun Spore.

Please welcome one of the most extreme threats in the 5th generation metagame (and I really mean that). Having a priority Substitute, Leech Seed and Protect, this gives room for some annoying stall using the SubSeed combo, and with Taunt it can prevent all kinds of set-up no matter how fast the opponent is thanks to its ability. This allows it to effectively shut down all sorts of walls or support Pokémon, and also cripple sweepers with Encore. Just imagine something like Salamence with 2 DD boosts being unable to hit because of getting trapped by priority Encore! Not only that, but since Erufuun will most probably not be used as an attacker, U-Turn will find a great usage in scouting and switching into appropriate counters once Erufuun has done its job successfully.

The only flaw I see in this guy is his typing, which gives it a whopping 5 weaknesses to some common types, and coupling that with poor defensive stats means that any super effective attack will kill it. However, with the right support Pokémon in the team, such as Shanderaa, the opponent is ensured a deadly end which is almost impossible to escape without getting affected in some bad way.

I've already tried this as a lead myself, and it has done me miracles. It prevented all the opposing leads from setting any entry hazards and/or attacking in the battles which I had, forcing them to switch out. This has given me chance to get the SubSeed combo up, or get a Pokémon of mine a free switch in. All these merits arguably make Erufuun one of the best, if not the best, stall breaker alongside being potentially the fastest anti-lead and supporting Pokémon in the metagame.

Last edited by Shadow; October 14, 2010 at 09:32:02 AM.
  #37  
Old October 14, 2010, 09:38:20 AM
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Boredom killed me, so I tried a team. It isn't that great in planning, but for the time being, I have been winning each and every battle.

It is a Sandstorm team, that is, my specialty. I can say one thing: Hippowdon and Doryuzu and Nittorei all together are just awesome!!! Just after a SD, Doryuzu will seep the whole team. Nittorei will set up spikes, and poof!! I also tried a Choice Scarf Waruvial which proved to be amazingly strong. Shandera was good, but not as great as Heatran since it has a lot of weaknesses. >_< Those are the ones I tried, and I am pleased to say that SS gained a new level.
  #38  
Old October 14, 2010, 11:23:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakazamaster View Post
Double post just to tell you that the latest version of Pokemon (DISALLOWED) has GENERATION FIVE POKEMON. I'm making a team right now, so expect lots of updates that are more than speculation!
Sweeet. So it won't be all theorycraft now. I'll head there to and make a team.
Btw, I still believe shanderra is a huge huge threat. With shadow tag and that massive special attack alone its easily gonna be the best revenge killer. X-x
  #39  
Old October 14, 2010, 12:21:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny View Post
Sweeet. So it won't be all theorycraft now. I'll head there to and make a team.
Btw, I still believe shanderra is a huge huge threat. With shadow tag and that massive special attack alone its easily gonna be the best revenge killer. X-x
Shanderra actually isn't as big as we thought it would be. Once it nets a revenge kill, it is easily countered by the next Pokemon brought in, and being Pursuit-weak makes Tyranitar able to deal with it calmly. Heatran also has a good time with it. Anyway, I made some new finds...



Burungel
Water/Ghost

HP: 100
Attack: 60
Defense: 70
Sp.Atk: 85
Sp.Def: 105
Speed: 60

Total: 480

This lady is made to be a specially based Spinblocker, which makes it an amazing counter to a very popular spinner: Starmie. Thunderbolt does less than 50%, so you can have fun with Recover and launch off some Shadow Balls or Energy Balls, its really up to personal preference. The Sp.Atk stat isn't amazing though, so you can't rely on this thing to support such a role. Hell, I wasn't even able to OHKO a Garchomp with Ice Beam with Burungel. Don't let that turn you off the idea of using her though, she is great at what she does.

Vaporeon may seem like a better Pokemon and hey, he just may be, but Burungel has some nice qualities, mostly with her being a Ghost-type. This makes her an amazing Spinblocker, and since we lost the Rotom formes as blockers, Burungel makes up for Wash Rotom well enough. Boil Over is a great Water-type move with 80 BP and a 30% chance of burn that nearly every Water-type gets, but Burungel can use Wll-O-Wisp for a more reliable burn status. Indeed, this Pokemon is shockingly bulky, and has great abilities in Water Absorb and Cursed Body. The latter of the two may disable the last used move of the foe, which can be quite nice.


Sazandora
Dark/Dragon

HP: 92
Attack: 105
Defense: 90
Sp.Atk: 125
Sp.Def: 90
Speed: 98

Total: 600

This guy has better stats than Flygon everywhere, except the 2 lower Speed points, and as such performs similar duties. I use this guy as a Choice Scarfer with Draco Meteor, U-Turn, Surf, and Fire Blast. This guy has a great in and out strategy, and you can't ignore that gorgeous Sp. Atk stat. I haven't tested out Dark Pulse or Earth Power yet, as I have mainly been going for coverage, but they could very well be usable. Look out for Blissey when using this guy. As long as you do, he will impress you.


Pendora
Bug/Poison

HP: 60
Attack: 90
Defense: 89
Sp.Atk: 55
Sp.Def: 69
Speed: 112

Total: 475

Bug/Poison? Base stat total of 475? Get ready for NU... ohwait never mind this guy is amazing. Sure its stats are low, but they are high in all the right places. Running a Jolly nature with 252 Speed EVs, this thing has surprised MANY MANY MANY battlers with its amazing speed. They have brought in things that receive an easy OHKO because they don't expect this guy to outpace them. As such, Pendora makes a great Swords Dancer, since it gets fantastic moves like Megahorn, Earthquake, Poison Jab, and Rock Slide. Nice, no? Anyway, not only can it try for a sweep, but I use it as a lead. It is THE fastest Toxic Spikes user in the entire game, making it a nice enough lead. Plus it has the Attack stat to really dent foes. Use this Bug well and you won't be disappointed. Definitely one of my favorites of Gen 5, without question. Plus it looks awesome.


Hihidaruma
Fire

HP: 105
Attack: 140
Defense: 55
Sp.Atk: 30
Sp.Def: 55
Speed: 95

Total: 480

I haven't tried out the odd "Daruma Mode" form of Hihidaruma, but the regular one is pretty nice. Boasting 140 Attack makes this odd thing an amazing Choice Scarfer that can rip some Pokemon in two pieces. If your a really risky person you could attach a Choice Band on it and let it destroy everything in sight, but 95 Speed is only decent at best.

This thing doesn't play like Infernape, since it will be coming in and out a lot. This makes having a spinner key, as Stealth Rock is as common as ever, and Spikes only went up in usage. Otherwise, poor Hihi won't be lasting long. Good thing it gets nice moves like Flare Blitz, U-Turn, Earthquake, Superpower, and Rock Slide. He's good, but he's not great. He dies really quickly if you misplay and can't come in on a whole lot, so be careful with this guy.

Last edited by Alakazamaster; October 14, 2010 at 12:24:32 PM.
  #40  
Old October 16, 2010, 12:52:32 AM
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If you give Shanderaa Shadow Ball, then he can seriously destroy everything. He aided even in the DARK type E4 member. It's just water he really can't handle. Shanderaa with Shadow Ball is a huge butt kicker. I have a team which I am getting to be great competetive battlers.... And I, RotomGuy, will prove Shanderaa is the guy we all hoped for!
  #41  
Old October 16, 2010, 05:50:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RotomGuy View Post
If you give Shanderaa Shadow Ball, then he can seriously destroy everything. He aided even in the DARK type E4 member. It's just water he really can't handle. Shanderaa with Shadow Ball is a huge butt kicker. I have a team which I am getting to be great competetive battlers.... And I, RotomGuy, will prove Shanderaa is the guy we all hoped for!
Shanderaa does have a way of handling Water-type Pokémon, as he learns Grass Knot and Energy Ball. I think most of Shanderaa's attacking sets will include Shadow Ball/Overheat/Fire Blast/Heat Wave/Grass Knot/Energy Ball for STAB and/or coverage.
  #42  
Old October 16, 2010, 08:41:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RotomGuy View Post
If you give Shanderaa Shadow Ball, then he can seriously destroy everything. He aided even in the DARK type E4 member. It's just water he really can't handle. Shanderaa with Shadow Ball is a huge butt kicker. I have a team which I am getting to be great competetive battlers.... And I, RotomGuy, will prove Shanderaa is the guy we all hoped for!
Shandera is by no means bad, but its is simply too hard for him to serve as a reliable revenge killer if he is (and he often is) choiced into a move like Overheat or Shadow Ball. The very common Tyranitar OHKOs it with Pursuit, and under the sand none of Shandera's attacks will do much. As such, Shandera is often running a Sub Calm Mind set of sorts, but even then will have trouble finding a good time to switch in.
  #43  
Old October 19, 2010, 10:26:45 PM
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Default Shuckle/Ditto

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...are_%28move%29
Spoiler Alert:    

Read it. Think about it. What do you notice that will make shuckle almost uber in the near future?

Now, as this was not enough-

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi..._%28ability%29
Spoiler Alert:    

Though not nearly as good, think of all the applications. Any moves that lower the stats- and gen V has created quite a few, as well as moves like leaf storm, will increase its stats- quite a step up from the ever popular "gluttony" and "sturdy".

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...ok%C3%A9mon%29
Spoiler Alert:    

The ability

This allows ditto to not only copy them without having to waste time, but makes him able to copy stat boosts- meaning that a pokemon that just used bellydrum could be switched in on, and henceforth the bonus would be 'stolen' and the ditto would sweep the team. Lead ditto like this could be interesting, as well as dittos with a certain choice scarf.
  #44  
Old October 19, 2010, 11:10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Serenade View Post
Think about it. What do you notice that will make shuckle almost uber in the near future?
Piexing may be very happy to hear this
  #45  
Old October 19, 2010, 11:16:14 PM
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Shuckles new ability is kinda a waste though.
He doesn't have anything that lowers his stats like the other pokemon that get it. Kinda unfortunate, but the power share thing may be pretty helpful. Still, I don't see him ending up in uber.
  #46  
Old October 20, 2010, 11:50:58 AM
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I've already seen Ditto used as a 'revenge killer' in several teams in Pokémon (DISALLOWED). It can be really annoying if played correctly, but otherwise, you can get rid of it fairly easily.
  #47  
Old October 20, 2010, 01:44:48 PM
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Shuckle doesn't exactly get any moves that would increase its stats in a good way. Antagonist is generally only useful on Smuglord because of Leaf Storm.

Ditto, though its ability is useful, isn't nearly as potent as one may think, since most variants carry a Choice Scarf to revenge kill with. The problem is that you always know an opposing Ditto's moveset since its YOUR Pokemon its turning into. As such, its not hard at all to bring in a reliable counter and force a switch. Definitely not Uber material.
  #48  
Old October 20, 2010, 02:13:39 PM
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Ditto isn't uber material, but it IS the ultimate scouter.
Seriously, being able to see whatever the opponents running and mimic it is amazing! Ditto may become UU or OU now.

Last edited by Sunny; October 20, 2010 at 02:14:05 PM.
  #49  
Old October 23, 2010, 06:23:19 PM
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Okay, here's something I've been using to great success.



Ononokusu @ Choice Scarf
Adamant, 252 Attack, 252 Spe, 6 HP
Outrage
Earthquake
X-Scizor
Return

I'll admit right now, I have been using this set for a week, and I have yet to use a move other than Outrage. Honestly, with 493 speed and 434 attack, I'ts just awesome. The ONLY things that can take 3 hits from outrage and live are Scizor, Nattorei, Skarmory, and Bronzong. That is why I have him partnered with this guy...



Together, they beat almost anything.

Last edited by TM38; October 23, 2010 at 06:24:40 PM.
  #50  
Old October 23, 2010, 08:43:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TM38 View Post
Okay, here's something I've been using to great success.



Ononokusu @ Choice Scarf
Adamant, 252 Attack, 252 Spe, 6 HP
Outrage
Earthquake
X-Scizor
Return

I'll admit right now, I have been using this set for a week, and I have yet to use a move other than Outrage. Honestly, with 493 speed and 434 attack, I'ts just awesome. The ONLY things that can take 3 hits from outrage and live are Scizor, Nattorei, Skarmory, and Bronzong. That is why I have him partnered with this guy...



Together, they beat almost anything.
That set seems a little iffy. Why would you even bother with Return? Your not getting anything out of it since Dragon hits everything except Steel, which Return has problems with... Why not consider Dragon Claw? Working off that sexy Attack stat and STAB remains, but your not locked into an Outrage! Shadow Claw might also be considered somewhere, especially with all of the Ghosts running around these days.
  #51  
Old October 24, 2010, 12:42:14 AM
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This suddenly turned into an RMT. o3o Return was just filler, by the way.
  #52  
Old November 29, 2010, 09:52:37 AM
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The ability regeneration is going to help ho-oh quite a bit.
  #53  
Old November 29, 2010, 12:26:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snivy View Post
The ability regeneration is going to help ho-oh quite a bit.
Yes and Tail Glow now raises Special Attack by 3 stages.

The ubers get uberer.
  #54  
Old November 29, 2010, 12:35:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Magmaster12 View Post
Yes and Tail Glow now raises Special Attack by 3 stages.

The ubers get uberer.
Tail glow raises it by 3! That's going to make manaphy stronger.
  #55  
Old November 29, 2010, 03:57:35 PM
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I honestly don't see the Grass-types getting any more hype from this generation than any other... >_<

Except I think Nattorei (against the right Pokemon) might have some potential. It's got awesome defenses, can learn Curse to increase its Attack and Defense, so as long as its not paired up with Fire types, I think it could be useful.
  #56  
Old November 29, 2010, 04:19:47 PM
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Originally Posted by GrassPokemonFTW View Post
I honestly don't see the Grass-types getting any more hype from this generation than any other... >_<

Except I think Nattorei (against the right Pokemon) might have some potential. It's got awesome defenses, can learn Curse to increase its Attack and Defense, so as long as its not paired up with Fire types, I think it could be useful.
You couldn't be more wrong, my friend. :>

Jalorda seemed only decent at first, but with the ability Antagonist, stat deductions are now stat increases. As a result, Leaf Storm raises Sp.Atk two stages while doing massive damage! It also possesses the ability to SubSeed amazingly, thanks to its high Speed, Glare, and the before mentioned Antagonist.

That's not all though! Erufuun's Teasing Heart ability makes it the best supporter out there! (maybe) Support moves are given +1 priority, so the little puffball can Encore anything it wants, or even set up Reflect, Light Screen, Tailwind, Safeguard, or Leech Seed! Wowza!

Mower Rotom is now technically a Grass type, which give Leaf Storm new-found power. While the loss of Ghost-typing hurts, ignoring this bulky Electric/Grass type would be foolish, especially since it possesses many of its old tanking abilities.

Then of course it Virizion, a bulky Pokemon that is speedy as well! This thing can take hits like a champ, and then proceed to Swords Dance or Calm Mind up and devastate foes with powerful moves like Close Combat, Leaf Blade, and Sacred Sword.

Looks like things are looking up for the Grass-type this gen!
  #57  
Old November 29, 2010, 06:53:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Alakazamaster View Post
You couldn't be more wrong, my friend. :>

Jalorda seemed only decent at first, but with the ability Antagonist, stat deductions are now stat increases. As a result, Leaf Storm raises Sp.Atk two stages while doing massive damage! It also possesses the ability to SubSeed amazingly, thanks to its high Speed, Glare, and the before mentioned Antagonist.

That's not all though! Erufuun's Teasing Heart ability makes it the best supporter out there! (maybe) Support moves are given +1 priority, so the little puffball can Encore anything it wants, or even set up Reflect, Light Screen, Tailwind, Safeguard, or Leech Seed! Wowza!

Mower Rotom is now technically a Grass type, which give Leaf Storm new-found power. While the loss of Ghost-typing hurts, ignoring this bulky Electric/Grass type would be foolish, especially since it possesses many of its old tanking abilities.

Then of course it Virizion, a bulky Pokemon that is speedy as well! This thing can take hits like a champ, and then proceed to Swords Dance or Calm Mind up and devastate foes with powerful moves like Close Combat, Leaf Blade, and Sacred Sword.

Looks like things are looking up for the Grass-type this gen!
I find myself a little silly now. You prove a very good case; I didn't really realize a lot of these things (Probably because I'm not really that observant, except I've seen the Grass-type get diadvantage after disadvantage in the competitive battling world). So I completely forgot about Jaroda's Dream World ability, which turns disadvanages to advantages. I guess things are looking up! Not just for Nattorei though.

But then I can't help but feel bad for those Pokemon who didn't really make the cut. Yanakki, Doredia, Morobareru, Hahakomori, Mebukujika, and Marakacchi all seem to be left out. But let's see if even I, an inobservant little person, can shed some light. I'll probably miss something in the process, but meh.

Yanakki doesn't seem to have anything useful. The only thing I could see it doing is utilizing its relatively high Speed (Base 101) to strike early, while holding a berry to increase either its Attack or Sp.Attack in a pinch, since it has low defenses (Base 68 each). Its abilities don't seem to really help either. Gluttony isn;t all that great for a low-defense Pokemon and Overgrow isn't all too special either unless it plans for a huge strike at the end. It's Base 75 HP doesn't seem to do it wonders either. :/

Doredia, I think, may benefit with an Erufuun-provided Tailwind. I think it would have the chance to pull off a Butterfly Dance with extra Speed (Base 90) to increase its already pretty high Sp.Attack (Base 110) and protect it from special attacks (Base 75 Special Defense) if it were faster, or delay by using Teeter Dance first. I've always found Doredia to be an annoyance whenever it used a Tailwind-Teeter Dance-Butterfly Dance combo. Then it can pull off a Petal Dance (now with its new Base 120 power). It's only weakness that I can really see at this point is its sub-par Defense (Base 75). Also, Attack should be sacrificed (Base 60) since it seems to be of no use here. I guess EV training in Defense would be in order, with either a Bold (+Def, -Atk) or Modest (+Sp.Atk, -Atk) Nature.

Hahakomori seems to face the same problem as Parasect, except worse. 4x weaknesses to two types and 2x weaknesses to 4 more types. And its Defenses (Base 80 Defense, Base 70 Special Defense) makes it very vulnerable. While its Speed is acceptable (Base 92) and its Attack is above average (Base 103), it seems to be like a suicide attacker, only pulling one shot which is the difference between life and death. However, a Ninjask-Speed Boost-Swords Dance-Baton Pass to Hahakomori might really help, allowing it to work its Attack with X-Scissor, Leaf Blade, or any other physical move that might help.

Morobareru is so slow (Base 30 Speed). And its offensive stats (Base 85 Attack and Sp.Attack) and its defensive stats (Base 70 Defense and Base 80 Special Defense) doesn't seem to do many favors. Only HP (Base 114) seems to define it. Effect Spore doesn't help much, and Regeneration doesn't make it a reason to use it. That's all I can really say.

I akways found Mebukijika as randomly versatile in its moves. Megahorn is understandable, but I didn;t imagine it would have Jump Kick. Faint Attack also seemed very random. But I like its Attack stat (Base 100) and its Speed is decent (Base 95), though its pretty brittle. (Base 70 on each defense) It sorta seems like a Doredia opposite, plus attack versatility, minus the status moves. It has access to moves that can eliminate its weaknesses, but something tells me it just needs a little more "umph" to its stats.

Marakacchi is OK, I guess, for a one-stage Pokemon. It sorta seems like Cacturne to me in a way: High offense (although Cacturne was more focused on Attack while Marakacchi is more of a special attacker, with Base 106 Sp.Atk), brittle defense (Base 67 on both defenses), low Speed (Base 60), but with access to Sucker Punch. But Marakacchi loses to Cacturne as it gets no STAB from Sucker Punch, gets less STAB since its single typed, and its abilities are only OK. Water Absorb seems to be the only ability that is worth using in a single battle, and possibly Storm Drain in multiples.

Of course, I may be forgetting things. I'd take my reviews with a grain of salt if I were you.
  #58  
Old November 30, 2010, 09:42:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magmaster12 View Post
Yes and Tail Glow now raises Special Attack by 3 stages.

The ubers get uberer.
Wait, in DPPtHGSS, Tail Glow used to raise the Special Attack by two stages, and according to Serebii, this hasn't changed in B/W. Am I missing on something?
  #59  
Old November 30, 2010, 12:55:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Wait, in DPPtHGSS, Tail Glow used to raise the Special Attack by two stages, and according to Serebii, this hasn't changed in B/W. Am I missing on something?
Ignore Serebii, they are silly people who are behind.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...low_%28move%29
  #60  
Old December 16, 2010, 08:42:34 PM
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I found this random tiering online: http://s7.zetaboards.com/N_M/topic/927309/1/
It's not Smogon approved but it seems to be pretty accurate based on their discussions, although it doesn't list NU. I've been studying it recently, and I've got to say, I'm loving that all of my favorite pokemon are OU or BL this generation. The sudden rise of Sableye thanks to Mischievous Heart and No Rotom Spin Blocking is highly appreciated. Plus good things for Hihidaruma, Meloetta, Jaroda, Roopushin, and Ranculus. I may actually raise a competitive team.
  #61  
Old December 17, 2010, 01:39:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sableyed View Post
I found this random tiering online: http://s7.zetaboards.com/N_M/topic/927309/1/
It's not Smogon approved but it seems to be pretty accurate based on their discussions, although it doesn't list NU. I've been studying it recently, and I've got to say, I'm loving that all of my favorite pokemon are OU or BL this generation. The sudden rise of Sableye thanks to Mischievous Heart and No Rotom Spin Blocking is highly appreciated. Plus good things for Hihidaruma, Meloetta, Jaroda, Roopushin, and Ranculus. I may actually raise a competitive team.
Thanks for sharing this link, Sableyed. The lists which that user made actually have quite a bit of sense put into them, but I still see some inaccuracies. Nevertheless, we're only about 15 days away from discovering the new Pokémon tiers as decided by Smogon. For further information, you guys can check this link on Smogon forums.

Last edited by Shadow; December 17, 2010 at 11:52:21 AM.
  #62  
Old December 17, 2010, 02:40:40 AM
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I'm really not to happy with Kyurem being placed in BL.

Also why Erufuun?

Last edited by Magmaster12; December 17, 2010 at 02:45:09 AM.
  #63  
Old December 17, 2010, 07:32:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magmaster12 View Post
Also why Erufuun?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Name: Erufuun
Pokédex entry: #547
Type: Grass
Ability: Mischevious Heart - Non-attacking moves have a higher priority (+1).

Base stats:
HP - 60
Attack - 67
Defense - 85
Special Attack - 77
Special Defense - 75
Speed - 116

You might think that such stats, excluding speed, make this guy a pretty mediocre Pokémon, but don't let that fool you. Sporting:

-an enormous base speed of 116,
-an excellent ability in Mischevious Heart,
-a very wide supporting movepool which includes Encore, Substitute, Leech Seed, Taunt, U-turn, Light Screen and Stun Spore.

Please welcome one of the most extreme threats in the 5th generation metagame (and I really mean that). Having a priority Substitute, Leech Seed and Protect, this gives room for some annoying stall using the SubSeed combo, and with Taunt it can prevent all kinds of set-up no matter how fast the opponent is thanks to its ability. This allows it to effectively shut down all sorts of walls or support Pokémon, and also cripple sweepers with Encore. Just imagine something like Salamence with 2 DD boosts being unable to hit because of getting trapped by priority Encore! Not only that, but since Erufuun will most probably not be used as an attacker, U-Turn will find a great usage in scouting and switching into appropriate counters once Erufuun has done its job successfully.

I've already tried this as a lead myself, and it has done me miracles. It prevented all the opposing leads from setting any entry hazards and/or attacking in the battles which I had, forcing them to switch out. This has given me chance to get the SubSeed combo up, or get a Pokémon of mine a free switch in. All these merits arguably make Erufuun one of the best, if not the best, stall breaker alongside being potentially the fastest anti-lead and supporting Pokémon in the metagame.
I posted this a long while ago, and yes, I was as surprised as you were upon learning that it makes a very threatening presence in the OU tier.
  #64  
Old December 17, 2010, 11:51:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sableyed View Post
I found this random tiering online: http://s7.zetaboards.com/N_M/topic/927309/1/
It's not Smogon approved but it seems to be pretty accurate based on their discussions, although it doesn't list NU. I've been studying it recently, and I've got to say, I'm loving that all of my favorite pokemon are OU or BL this generation. The sudden rise of Sableye thanks to Mischievous Heart and No Rotom Spin Blocking is highly appreciated. Plus good things for Hihidaruma, Meloetta, Jaroda, Roopushin, and Ranculus. I may actually raise a competitive team.
This kinda looks just like a random and semi unreliable forum, based on the... 85 members. It also looks like they just ripped the OU List from Gen. 4 and added some of the things that have been used a lot. Plus, it was made by just one guy based on only semi-reliable information.

As harsh as that sounds, a lot of it still seems pretty accurate, of course ignoring the fact that UU and BL can't really be decided this early in a metagame. Tiering itself though is really complex, so I am waiting on Smogon since they are pretty much the standard for competitive battling.

Oh, and as of yet Dreak World abilities are not considered legal, making many Pokemon like Ditto and Alakazam less great for OU.

Last edited by Alakazamaster; December 17, 2010 at 11:52:49 AM.
  #65  
Old December 24, 2010, 05:02:11 AM
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For all competitive battlers on VR, I believe that you will find the 13th issue of The Smog extremely helpful in introducing Gen V's metagame to you. Here's a list of the most important articles:

The premiere metagame threatlist
OU metagame analysis
Changes to the old legendaries
The decline of previous threats.

Last edited by Shadow; December 24, 2010 at 05:02:26 AM.
  #66  
Old December 24, 2010, 07:57:15 AM
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I'm glad that Nattorei and Erufuun may very well find a place in OU. But how come I didn't see anything about a Perversity-Jaroda in there? Hm...whatevs. It's too bad to see Rotom's better formes take a hit and fall, in which it seems that Rotom-W probably survived the best out of all, while Rotom-A seems to have lost its main usability.

Funny to see how Ditto seems to be getting its "revenge" on the world for ignoring it.
  #67  
Old December 24, 2010, 12:30:11 PM
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Actually, I already faced a couple of Ditto back when PO was working on my computer, and quite honestly, it didn't pose such a big threat on my team members. In fact, I was able to defeat it in the very first turn, so I'm not sure if it really is such a big threat after all. It all comes down to how well you predict its entry and then how you carefully you make your moves. But yeah, it does seem 'eccentric' to see Ditto rise from zero to hero, right from the darkness of the NU tier.

Last edited by Shadow; December 24, 2010 at 12:31:50 PM.
  #68  
Old December 24, 2010, 02:16:10 PM
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Curious they listed Murkrow, as opposed to Sableye or Volbeat. I didn't know he could abuse Mischievous Heart well.
  #69  
Old December 24, 2010, 06:58:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Actually, I already faced a couple of Ditto back when PO was working on my computer, and quite honestly, it didn't pose such a big threat on my team members. In fact, I was able to defeat it in the very first turn, so I'm not sure if it really is such a big threat after all. It all comes down to how well you predict its entry and then how you carefully you make your moves. But yeah, it does seem 'eccentric' to see Ditto rise from zero to hero, right from the darkness of the NU tier.
Ditto does exactly what it is meant to do, whether you can defeat it or not.

Imagine that you have a +3 Atk and +3 Spd Salamence, ready to wipe out a foe's team. In comes their Ditto, which takes your stat boosts along with your stats, and you must switch it. Sure it didn't KO your Pokemon, but it stopped you well enough.

Even if you bring in something like a Bronzong and it Dragon Claws, it can just come back later and repeat its job. Although it is fun to bait and trap them, like having them come in on something Pursuit-weak and then throw in a Tyranitar to take them out.
  #70  
Old December 25, 2010, 12:55:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakazamaster View Post
Although it is fun to bait and trap them, like having them come in on something Pursuit-weak and then throw in a Tyranitar to take them out.
Exactly. I was able to 'defeat' it easily because I used its strategy against it. But really, I personally don't see myself using Ditto as a revenge killer in my Gen V metagame team because it seems unreliable and risky to do that.
  #71  
Old December 25, 2010, 02:14:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Sableyed View Post
Curious they listed Murkrow, as opposed to Sableye or Volbeat. I didn't know he could abuse Mischievous Heart well.
I faced one as a lead. It was quite annoying, but defeating it wasn't that hard at all.
  #72  
Old December 25, 2010, 08:14:57 AM
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Almost anything with Mischievous Heart will be annoying. Moves that get a priority due to this ability, such as Taunt, Substitute and Leech Seed, will pretty much shut down a Pokémon or stall it out annoyingly. The purpose of a Mischevious Heart Pokémon is mostly, if not always, to do that and not necessarily sweep opposing Pokémon.
  #73  
Old December 27, 2010, 11:20:40 PM
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I tryed battling on Pkemononline the other day, i got destroyed!!! Those 5th gen pokemon/abilitys makes alot harder to predict stuff i had a 30-8 win streak in one day, and my current record was like 10-4 really bad though. Plus that dang steel/ground mole in sandstorm teams it kills you! My teams always lost to sandstorm teams.

Last edited by kakashidragon; December 27, 2010 at 11:21:17 PM.
  #74  
Old December 28, 2010, 12:37:40 AM
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Originally Posted by kakashidragon View Post
I tryed battling on Pkemononline the other day, i got destroyed!!! Those 5th gen pokemon/abilitys makes alot harder to predict stuff i had a 30-8 win streak in one day, and my current record was like 10-4 really bad though. Plus that dang steel/ground mole in sandstorm teams it kills you! My teams always lost to sandstorm teams.
You see, Doryuuzu hits 604 speed under the sand (assuming perfect EVs/IVs in speed), which is basically more than enough to outrun all the Pokémon in the metagame. However, sandstorm teams, in my opinion, have become much more predictable currently than with the last generation; almost, if not all, teams will have:

1) A Sand Streamer (Hippowdon/Tyranitar, both of which share similar weaknesses)
2) Doryuuzu (the #1 sweeper in any sand team): Swords Dance, Earthquake, Stone Edge, X-Scissor/some other filler move.
3) Any of the following for secondary sweeping: Garchomp, Landlos, Terrakion (other Pokémon are also valid)
4) Nattorei
5) Miscellaneous support Pokémon (which is where sandstorm teams cannot be exactly predictable): Burunkeru, Scizor, Heatran, Empoleon (though rare), etc.

So basically, you are almost 100% sure that you will face Doryuuzu in a sandstorm team. From there, you can ensure that you have a counter which can defeat Doryuuzu. Since it is weak to common types like Water, Fire and Fight, it should not be a big problem to pack attacks of these types. Also, as an added bonus, you will also be able to defeat other Pokémon in a sandstorm team (like Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Garchomp, Landlos, Nattorei, etc) because they share several weaknesses which Doryuuzu has. Really, the key is to predict when your opponent is going to bring in Doryuuzu, then immediately hit it in the face before it can set up or sweep. Lastly, Doryuuzu is weak to many common priority attacks, such as Aqua Jet and Mach Punch, so you can always make sure to hit it with such attacks before it tries to defeat you.

Last edited by Shadow; December 28, 2010 at 12:47:58 AM.
  #75  
Old December 28, 2010, 01:21:28 AM
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I have been checking Smogon recently. Right now, they are doing a suspect list whether to ban some abilities. They are currently suspecting three abilities. These abilities are:
Drizzle
Inconsistent
Shadow Tag


They are still debating about it and they will post the results either today or tomorrow. Most probably, these three abilities are going to be banned. After that, they will see about the Pokémon that should be banned.
  #76  
Old December 28, 2010, 01:37:55 AM
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Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
I have been checking Smogon recently. Right now, they are doing a suspect list whether to ban some abilities. They are currently suspecting three abilities. These abilities are:
Drizzle
Inconsistent
Shadow Tag


They are still debating about it and they will post the results either today or tomorrow. Most probably, these three abilities are going to be banned. After that, they will see about the Pokémon that should be banned.
1- Ban Drizzle? It's highly unlikely that they will do that for many reasons; firstly, if Drizzle was to be banned, then Sand Stream, Drought and Snow Warning should be banned as well to ensure everything is equal. Secondly, with the addition of Drizzle and Drought to the OU generation, all the weather teams will have auto-weather inducing abilities and so can compete fairly with each other. It really doesn't make any sense, and actually, a lot of professional battlers said that asking to ban Drizzle only is unreasonable and stupid. However, it's really up to the majority of the people (and well, the majority are not experts anyways), so it's still a good possibility.

2- Inconsistent NEEDS to be banned. It seriously raises the level of luck in the battles to ridiculous levels, and so shall probably be included with the Evasion Clause. Basically, Inconsistent raises a stat (including evasion) of the Pokémon by two stages and decreases another stat by one stage at the end of every turn. It is an annoyingly noobish ability which makes Pokémon battles unfair.

3- Shadow Tag is only being nominated for a ban mainly because of Shanderaa. Basically, when Shanderaa acquires Shadow Tag from the Dream World, it will be able to defeat at least one opposing Pokémon by switching into resisted attacks. Many people expressed fear that this will make Shanderaa much harder to take down in a battle without doing a lot of sacrifices.

If I had to vote on those three abilities, I would personally say that Drizzle should be kept unbanned, Inconsistent needs to be banned and Shadow Tag... well, it doesn't matter to me either way.

Last edited by Shadow; December 28, 2010 at 01:39:30 AM.
  #77  
Old December 28, 2010, 01:51:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
1- Ban Drizzle? It's highly unlikely that they will do that for many reasons; firstly, if Drizzle was to be banned, then Sand Stream, Drought and Snow Warning should be banned as well to ensure everything is equal. Secondly, with the addition of Drizzle and Drought to the OU generation, all the weather teams will have auto-weather inducing abilities and so can compete fairly with each other. It really doesn't make any sense, and actually, a lot of professional battlers said that asking to ban Drizzle only is unreasonable and stupid. However, it's really up to the majority of the people (and well, the majority are not experts anyways), so it's still a good possibility.

2- Inconsistent NEEDS to be banned. It seriously raises the level of luck in the battles to ridiculous levels, and so shall probably be included with the Evasion Clause. Basically, Inconsistent raises a stat (including evasion) of the Pokémon by two stages and decreases another stat by one stage at the end of every turn. It is an annoyingly noobish ability which makes Pokémon battles unfair.

3- Shadow Tag is only being nominated for a ban mainly because of Shanderaa. Basically, when Shanderaa acquires Shadow Tag from the Dream World, it will be able to defeat at least one opposing Pokémon by switching into resisted attacks. Many people expressed fear that this will make Shanderaa much harder to take down in a battle without doing a lot of sacrifices.

If I had to vote on those three abilities, I would personally say that Drizzle should be kept unbanned, Inconsistent needs to be banned and Shadow Tag... well, it doesn't matter to me either way.
I don't have any opinion on these three but Smogon is not taking the majority of people's opinion. In fact, Smogon has made a list of expert battlers and it is these battlers who are deciding not the people themselves. I have been checking few comments from before since the voting is still private and we don't know their decision yet. As some people said, Rain has more abusers than any other weather and with Drizzle in OU, a Rain team is unstoppable due to the sweepers, stallers and the arrival of Manaphy. No one has mentioned anything about the other weathers and they are only talking about Drizzle on its own. Again, we will see the results soon.
For sandstorm, they still didn't start banning Pokémon yet, but most probably, Doryuzu is going to be banned to Ubers.
  #78  
Old December 28, 2010, 05:30:19 AM
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Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
As some people said, Rain has more abusers than any other weather and with Drizzle in OU, a Rain team is unstoppable due to the sweepers, stallers and the arrival of Manaphy. No one has mentioned anything about the other weathers and they are only talking about Drizzle on its own.
Actually, I've read a lot of pages in a thread on Smogon where people nominate their suspects, and many of them claimed that sandstorm teams have become much more powerful than the other weather teams this generation. This is mainly due to Doryuuzu, Nattorei, Terrakion (who has the best stats ever to be put on any physical sweeper), and the notorious Garchomp. Even the 13th issue of The Smog confirms that it will be extremely difficult to control rain and sun teams when sandstorm reigns over the generation. Compare the above mentioned Pokémon to ones like Ludicolo, Kabutops and Qwilfish, which are common Swift Swimmers under the rain (ignoring Kingdra since it is the only OU rain abuser). Obviously, they are much weaker when placed beside the likes of Doryuuzu and Garchomp, who have very powerful STAB attacks and better stats. If matters were to be kept fair, then neither Doryuuzu nor Garchomp should be banned to the Uber tier, as both have exploitable flaws. It's interesting to point out that such Pokémon are noticeably stronger than the mentioned rain abusers, who are in the end placed in UU for a good reason. Plus, more likely than not, Manaphy will be placed in Ubers because Tail Glow has made it much more dangerous.

I can go on and debate over this for as long as it takes me, but I'm not going to bother, for my opinion will not influence the direction of the new metagame anyways. But really, as long as sandstorm teams are still omnipresent, rain cannot be described as unstoppable. Both of them are much stronger than the other weather teams, but they are both still not broken, in my opinion.

EDIT: In other news, have a look at this post on Smogon forums, in which a member posted the log of a really interesting battle. Using a single Bidoof with Inconsistent, he was able to defeat a whole OU team! 0_0

Last edited by Shadow; December 28, 2010 at 06:12:58 AM.
  #79  
Old December 28, 2010, 09:55:07 AM
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I am not debating which one is stronger, since I am a Sandstorm user and I know it is strong. Also, I am not viewing any threads in Smogon. I am viewing the official thread in which selected players are nominating it. Many abilities were discussed, including Sand Veil, but they came to a conclusion that these three abilities are those who should be discussed about.
  #80  
Old December 28, 2010, 01:37:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Actually, I've read a lot of pages in a thread on Smogon where people nominate their suspects, and many of them claimed that sandstorm teams have become much more powerful than the other weather teams this generation. This is mainly due to Doryuuzu, Nattorei, Terrakion (who has the best stats ever to be put on any physical sweeper), and the notorious Garchomp. Even the 13th issue of The Smog confirms that it will be extremely difficult to control rain and sun teams when sandstorm reigns over the generation. Compare the above mentioned Pokémon to ones like Ludicolo, Kabutops and Qwilfish, which are common Swift Swimmers under the rain (ignoring Kingdra since it is the only OU rain abuser). Obviously, they are much weaker when placed beside the likes of Doryuuzu and Garchomp, who have very powerful STAB attacks and better stats. If matters were to be kept fair, then neither Doryuuzu nor Garchomp should be banned to the Uber tier, as both have exploitable flaws. It's interesting to point out that such Pokémon are noticeably stronger than the mentioned rain abusers, who are in the end placed in UU for a good reason. Plus, more likely than not, Manaphy will be placed in Ubers because Tail Glow has made it much more dangerous.

I can go on and debate over this for as long as it takes me, but I'm not going to bother, for my opinion will not influence the direction of the new metagame anyways. But really, as long as sandstorm teams are still omnipresent, rain cannot be described as unstoppable. Both of them are much stronger than the other weather teams, but they are both still not broken, in my opinion.

EDIT: In other news, have a look at this post on Smogon forums, in which a member posted the log of a really interesting battle. Using a single Bidoof with Inconsistent, he was able to defeat a whole OU team! 0_0
Wait, I don't quite understand why one would ignore Kingdra when finding the top weather abusers. You mention OU Sandstorm abusers, but mention that Kingdra should be ignored because its in OU? Well anyway, its also important to understand that many 4th Gen Swift Swimmers were in UU because there was no way for them to guarantee rain in OU. The only Drizzler was in Ubers, and Hippowdon and Tyranitar made keeping rain up extremely difficult. With permanent rain, Swift Swimmers have an easier time functioning, and thus are more successful.

Gorebyss and Huntail also play key roles on Swift Swim teams, since they can easily come in on something unprepared to deal with them (such as a Blissey, trying to stop a Ludicolo sweep) and throw up a Shell Break. With a White Herb, they only receive positive boosts, and can then Baton Pass away to a Pokemon that can absolutely devastate a team. The fact that they will be devastatingly quick under the rain and after the Shell Break boosts means that they will almost always get away, especially since they resist common priority attacks such as Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, and Ice Shard.

Sorry if this seems like a lot of rambling, I just wanted to point out just how extremely powerful rain is, especially since sand only has one Sand Paddler, and mostly takes advantage of the risky Sand Veil.
  #81  
Old December 28, 2010, 03:27:55 PM
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Well, as a Sandstorm user, I wouldn`t necessarily guarantee Doryuuzu being on a Sandstorm team (I rarely use one myself), but I have heard from nearly every person I`ve battled about how difficult they are to defeat. While it`s not quite that dangerous unless used correctly, I regretfully would have to agree that it is worth banning to Ubers. At the very least, it should get rid of all those annoying Sandstorm team knock-offs all over the place, nobody puts any originality into them because of the "easy gimmick" battlers have to abuse.

On the note of abilities being banned, Drizzle most definitely should not be. Prior to the Dream World, inly Kyogre, and Uber Pokemon, had access to it, which put the other weather effects at a "disadvantage" to Sandstorms, because of Tyranitar and Hippowdon being able to create them permanently. Eliminating Drizzle would just further increase the complaints people would have about Sandstorms being too overpowered in Generation V.

Inconsistent always seems to be used by Smeargle whenever I see it, it comes out as a lead, Spores, then uses a stat-boosting move and receives the Inconsistent boost at the end of the turn, followed by either another stat-boosting move or Baton Pass right away. In this way, it basically works as a pseudo-Shell Break Baton Pass.

I don`t really want to see Shadow Tag being banned, especially because of that new strategy of mine....only three Pokemon can currently use it and amount to anything (except for with that strategy of mine ) Wobbuffet, Wynaut, and Shandera. Wobbuffet`s already Uber, and Wynaut`s stats aren`t the best. Shandera is a great Pokemon, but it isn`t invincible, and doesn`t actually have a 100% success rate (though arguably a high one). Ever time someone uses is against me, they bring it out against Bronzong. On the same turn as the switch, I set up with a certain move anyone who`s battled me knows, and then KO it the next turn. With the right Pokemon, it`s possible to take it out without any casualties. So while I`m not entirely behind banning Shadow Tag altogether, I can see the sense in it (and Shandera would still have Flash Fire, a great ability, so it isn`t all bad).
  #82  
Old December 28, 2010, 07:08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraKshatriya View Post
Well, as a Sandstorm user, I wouldn`t necessarily guarantee Doryuuzu being on a Sandstorm team (I rarely use one myself), but I have heard from nearly every person I`ve battled about how difficult they are to defeat. While it`s not quite that dangerous unless used correctly, I regretfully would have to agree that it is worth banning to Ubers. At the very least, it should get rid of all those annoying Sandstorm team knock-offs all over the place, nobody puts any originality into them because of the "easy gimmick" battlers have to abuse.
This is essentially rain in Gen. 4's UU metagame. People lead with an Electrode and spam Ludicolos and Kabutops until they would win, which lead to a metagame very reliant on bulky Pokemon (increase of Chansey, Weezing, Milotic, and Uxie). However, the thing with UU was that rain could be put under control since it didn't last forever, but with Dory and sand, it is not as happy a tale. Dory and Magnezone have fantastic synergy, since Magnezone easily takes out Forretress, Bronzong, Skarmory, and Nattorei (HP Fire, though), making Dory fantastic at late-game cleaning. So yeah, more rambling here, basically saying Dory belongs in Uber.
  #83  
Old December 29, 2010, 12:05:23 AM
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Smogon didn't start suspecting Pokémon yet, but soon enough, we will see about Doryuzu.
Anyway, the results of the suspect test of the three abilities are already tere and here they are:
Drizzle: 56% asked for it to be banned so it is going to go to round 2 to see whether it should be banned or not.
Inconsistent: 96% asked to ban this ability, and from now onwards this ability is banned in standard play.
Shadow Tag: Only 43% asked for it to be banned and thus it is decided that Shadow Tag can be used in standard play.


I will be waiting for them to decide about Drizzle and I will tell you then.
  #84  
Old December 29, 2010, 12:16:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Alakazamaster View Post
Wait, I don't quite understand why one would ignore Kingdra when finding the top weather abusers. You mention OU Sandstorm abusers, but mention that Kingdra should be ignored because its in OU? Well anyway, its also important to understand that many 4th Gen Swift Swimmers were in UU because there was no way for them to guarantee rain in OU. The only Drizzler was in Ubers, and Hippowdon and Tyranitar made keeping rain up extremely difficult. With permanent rain, Swift Swimmers have an easier time functioning, and thus are more successful.
You see, I ignored Kingdra because I can't say anything about him as he's undoubtedly very strong under the rain. But for the other Swift Swimmers, they really have mediocre stats at best, especially when compared to the more powerful Sandstorm abusers (most of which are present in OU currently). Also, I really doubt that Pokémon like Kabutops were placed in UU only because there was no permanent rain guaranteed for them; here are the main flaws with each common Swift Swimmer:

Kabutops: weaknesses to Electric, Grass (x4), Ground and Fight are really crippling, and so setting up against the opposing Pokémon, even with Swift Swim under the rain, is a pretty difficult task. Still, its attack stat is appealing and cannot be ignored.

Ludicolo: has average stats all around, and is not really capable of denting large holes in opposing teams when compared to Kingdra. Plus, weaknesses to Bug (U-Turn, X-Scissor), Flying (Air Slash, Brave Bird), and Poison. The former two aren't exactly rare to stumble upon, but Ludicolo still remains one of the best Swift Swimmers in the rain even when Omastar has better special attack.

Qwilfish: 65/75/55 defenses are verging on horrible (and yes, defenses do matter even under the rain, for a sweeper should preferably be able to take a hit). It's strongest stat is a mediocre 95 attack, and that's not exactly something extraordinary. This can be remedied with Swords Dance, though.

Omastar: the same thing as Kabutops in terms of weaknesses. I haven't really used Omastar, so I can't give much detail on it. However, it's defense and special attack stats are appealing, but the typing hinders it greatly. Plus, 55 speed is really horrible and even under the rain, it won't be outrunning too many Pokémon.

Kingdra: the only OU rain abuser. Water/Dragon is an excellent typing, allowing it to get STAB on very powerful attacks. 75/95/95 defenses are respectable, and 95/95 attack stats allow it to become a fearsome mixed sweeper. 85 speed + Swift Swim under the rain makes it able to set up easily and sweep. However, it only has balanced, average stats all around and doesn't have a particular strong point (although that hardly matters with Dragon Dance).

When you compare them all to Doryuuzu, Garchomp, Terrakion or some other Sandstorm abusers, you will find that Swift Swimmers stand, at best, around average Pokémon (with the exception of Kingdra). Almost each of the common Sandstorm abusers have an extraordinarily strong point with extra means of boosting their stats. Terrakion gets STAB on two extremely powerful attacks which, I think, are unresisted by any common Pokémon in OU. I know for a fact that one Pokémon like Kingdra under the rain will not always be capable of sweeping a whole team by itself, so the other Swift Swimmers still matter.

TL;DR: Rain is very powerful, and it has become much more threatening with the addition of Drizzle in Gen V. However, Sandstorm still reigns over the metagame, and its abusers are generally more powerful than rain abusers, especially with the addition of strong Pokémon like Doryuuzu, Terrakion and Nattorei.

Quote:
Gorebyss and Huntail also play key roles on Swift Swim teams, since they can easily come in on something unprepared to deal with them (such as a Blissey, trying to stop a Ludicolo sweep) and throw up a Shell Break. With a White Herb, they only receive positive boosts, and can then Baton Pass away to a Pokemon that can absolutely devastate a team. The fact that they will be devastatingly quick under the rain and after the Shell Break boosts means that they will almost always get away, especially since they resist common priority attacks such as Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, and Ice Shard.
True, of course. Shell Break is a strong move for the user itself or for Baton Passing, but it is not entirely reliable. Plus, whenever Gorebyss/Huntail switch in, the opponent will immediately predict a Shell Break on them, and so can work out a strategy to counter them from there. I agree that it's not easy to do that, but the drop in the defenses will surely come to aid if they lack White Herb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraKshatriya View Post
On the note of abilities being banned, Drizzle most definitely should not be. Prior to the Dream World, inly Kyogre, and Uber Pokemon, had access to it, which put the other weather effects at a "disadvantage" to Sandstorms, because of Tyranitar and Hippowdon being able to create them permanently. Eliminating Drizzle would just further increase the complaints people would have about Sandstorms being too overpowered in Generation V.
That's exactly the main reason why I am against banning Drizzle. How come Sandstorm got two Sand Streamers which are very highly used for different purposes (especially Tyranitar, who has always been one of the top-tier Pokémon in Gen IV)? You know, we always had to deal with such Pokémon without much complaint that they were very strong and greatly benefited other Pokémon with their permanent sand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakazamaster View Post
Dory and Magnezone have fantastic synergy, since Magnezone easily takes out Forretress, Bronzong, Skarmory, and Nattorei (HP Fire, though), making Dory fantastic at late-game cleaning. So yeah, more rambling here, basically saying Dory belongs in Uber.
Actually, if I also had to vote, I wouldn't put Doryuuzu in Ubers if Drizzle was voted to remain unbanned. It only makes things fairer in OU, especially when compared to Swift Swimmers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
Drizzle: 56% asked for it to be banned so it is going to go to round 2 to see whether it should be banned or not.
Inconsistent: 96% asked to ban this ability, and from now onwards this ability is banned in standard play.
Shadow Tag: Only 43% asked for it to be banned and thus it is decided that Shadow Tag can be used in standard play.
The results are satisfactory overall. I'm just waiting to see what will be the final result for Drizzle.

Last edited by Shadow; December 29, 2010 at 12:47:28 AM.
  #85  
Old December 29, 2010, 02:27:01 AM
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*Double post for updates*

Here is the list of suspect Pokemon which need to be voted on by specific members in Smogon forums:

Darkrai
Deoxys-A
Deoxys-N
Doryuuzu
Latios
Manaphy
Shaymin-S

Last edited by Shadow; December 29, 2010 at 02:27:25 AM.
  #86  
Old December 29, 2010, 04:27:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Here is the list of suspect Pokemon which need to be voted on by specific members in Smogon forums:

Darkrai
Deoxys-A
Deoxys-N
Doryuuzu
Latios
Manaphy
Shaymin-S
We will get the results within three days. That would be good. Currently, the Uber list is:
Arceus
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Kyogre
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Zekrom


Considering those who are currently getting suspected, we will find many Pokémon that are now OU!
Deoxys-D
Deoxys-S
Garchomp
Latias
Mew
Salamence
Wobuffet (Wynaut as well)

All these are now OU! O_O They will have a huge impact on the current metagame.

Going back to the current suspect list, here is what I would vote for:
Darkrai: Ban
A lot of Speed and Sp. Attack along with Dark Void. Not to mention its wide movepool. This thing is just too strong.
Deoxys-A: Ban
Deoxys-N: Ban
Both of them have huge Attack/Sp. Attack and can break through teams easily. It is hard to stop them.
Doryuuzu: Don't Ban
I understand it is the fastest one when Sandstorm is in play, and yes, it has a huge attack, but it has its own drawbacks nevertheless. I played with it for a good amount of time and I was able to notice that it can be defeated. However, if Drizzle is banned, then this thing needs to go away.
Latios: Don't Ban
Lati@s lost their Soul Dew in Gen V. Without it, Latios, despite its huge Sp. Attack, can still be countered. Tyranitar is quite popular and is capable of defeating it with Crunch/Pursuit. Another commonly used one is Scizor which U-turn/Pursuit Latios as well. It is weaker than before so it won't be able to survive.
Manaphy: Ban
Shaymin-S: Ban

Manaphy has that move (I forgot its name) which increase Sp. Attack by 3 stages! Along with rain, Manaphy is invincible! It deserves to be banned. I has to. Shaymin-S has got two strong moves along with high Speed and high Sp. Attack. The normal Shaymin is strong so what about this?
  #87  
Old December 29, 2010, 07:35:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
Considering those who are currently getting suspected, we will find many Pokémon that are now OU!
Deoxys-D
Deoxys-S
Garchomp
Latias
Mew
Salamence
Wobuffet (Wynaut as well)

All these are now OU! O_O They will have a huge impact on the current metagame.
Deoxys-D has a bad Psychic typing and a horrible HP stat, so it can be easily countered. Deoxys-S can now be outrun due to Mischevious Heart, and its offensive stats are rather lackluster. Garchomp is going to be a pain with its Sand Veil ability, powerful STABs, and amazing stats under the sand. Latias has lost its significance due to the current absence of Soul Dew, but its speed is still great. Mew has solid 100-all stats and an extremely versatile movepool, but is hindered by its typing. Salamence is as threatening as ever, but Gen V introduced many other strong Pokémon which make Salamence less fearsome. Wobbuffet's Encore now lasts only for 3 turns (instead of the previous 4-8 turns), but it is still annoying. Overall, I don't think they made any wrong decisions over here.

Now, here's what my votes are for the suspect list:
(they are the exact same as Spirit, but I elaborated on the reasons much more)

Darkrai: Ban
135 SpA + 125 Spe + Nasty Plot only make Darkrai capable of outrunning and defeating almost all Pokémon in the OU metagame. Now, with its phenomenal speed, it makes perfect usage of Dark Void, which has a good accuracy of 80% for a sleep move. Add that to Darkrai's Bad Dreams ability, and you've got an extremely difficult Pokémon to take down which can easily set up and wreck havoc.

Deoxys-A: Ban
Deoxys-N: Ban
Seriously, HUGE offensive stats and super high speed allow both the Deoxys formes to outrun and consequently destroy opposing teams extremely easily.

Doryuuzu: Don't Ban
I agree with Spirit over here; if Drizzle is voted to be banned, then Doryuuzu should be banned, too. Doryuuzu is capable of outspeeding all the Pokémon in the metagame under the sand, and with an amazing attack as well as Swords Dance, it is virtually unstoppable once it sets up. It can be defeated, but it is a REALLY difficult job, especially in the sand.

Latios: Don't Ban
Same as Latias. Among such a heavily offensive metagame, I think that the Lati@s have lost their significant threats. Soul Dew's absence also makes matters worse for both of them, so they are more easily managed now.

Manaphy: Ban
Honestly, Manaphy has received perhaps two of the greatest boosts this generation: Tail Glow's modified effect and Drizzle. Manaphy has great 100-all stats, and Tail Glow further increases Manaphy's special attack by 3 stages at once, making it reach sky high levels. Rest + Hydration under the rain allow it to instantly recover any damage done to it, and its 100/100/100 defenses make it even harder to be taken down.

Shaymin-S: Ban
I still can't believe that they are actually considering Shaymin-S in OU. A special attack of 120 coupled with a blistering speed of 127 makes it a very dangerous special sweeper which, again, outruns a large portion of the metagame. Now, this is not only what makes Shaymin-S such a big threat; Serene Grace makes Air Slash's flinch effect rise to 60%, while Seed Flare's chance of decreasing the opponent's special defense by 2 stages rise to 80%! Do not forget that Shaymin-S also gets STAB on both of the attacks, and has acceptable 100/75/75 defenses.

Last edited by Shadow; December 29, 2010 at 07:38:34 AM.
  #88  
Old December 29, 2010, 08:57:49 PM
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Drizzle should NOT be banned, if they are going to ban Drizzle, they might as well ban Hippo and T-tar. I am a strong believer in thinking no team is perfect and all teams have weaknesses, you just need to exploit these weaknesses and use them to your advantage, like for rain dance teams, use the rain to your advantage, if you run bulky water types, spam water type attacks, you have the boost. If you ever run a bulky water type, get Vaporeon because Hydration is cheap. Also Shandera may guarantee a KO in most matches, but u-turn/volt Change can escape shadow tag, and if you're running a fighting type, try and sneak a Sucker Punch, it tends to OHKO after rocks. also, Rain dance teams weaken shandera so it's not entirely cheap. Wobbuffet on the other hand, should be put into ubers, no shadow tag pokemon should be extremely bulky, also Ditto should be put in ubers because it can counter any pokemon and is probably the best late game sweeper in the game. When your building black/white teams, you should build your teams in a way that can counter most of the "cheap" pokemon.
  #89  
Old December 30, 2010, 03:29:09 AM
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Originally Posted by tainers14 View Post
Also Ditto should be put in ubers because it can counter any pokemon and is probably the best late game sweeper in the game.
Really, Ditto might have become the most threatening Pokémon this generation according to Smogon, but I still believe it should not be banned to the Uber tier. Countering Ditto only requires strategical thinking; let's suppose your opponent brings out his Ditto on your Pursuit-weak Pokémon. You can then easily switch out and bring in something like Tyranitar who can Pursuit your opponent's Ditto to death. It may not always be very easy, but you know every move on your Pokémon which Ditto transforms into, and with the right prediction, it shouldn't be extremely difficult to play around until you make Ditto fall into your trap.
  #90  
Old December 30, 2010, 10:09:00 AM
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Ditto deserves to be in OU. It is funny how it was NU and now people want it to be with Ubers. Just sayin'!

Anyway, Hippowdon and Tyranitar are less threatening than Drizzle since Rain abusers are far more dangerous. Excluding Sand Throw, the only way to abuse sand is Sand Power and the unreliable Sand Veil. Comparing it with Swift Swimmers, Rain Dishers, Hydrationers and Dry Skinners, Rain is more dangerous. Oh, and let us not forget Toxicroak.
  #91  
Old December 30, 2010, 10:39:30 AM
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Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
Ditto deserves to be in OU. It is funny how it was NU and now people want it to be with Ubers. Just sayin'!

Anyway, Hippowdon and Tyranitar are less threatening than Drizzle since Rain abusers are far more dangerous. Excluding Sand Throw, the only way to abuse sand is Sand Power and the unreliable Sand Veil. Comparing it with Swift Swimmers, Rain Dishers, Hydrationers and Dry Skinners, Rain is more dangerous. Oh, and let us not forget Toxicroak.
Dry Skin = Toxicroak (and only him).

Anyways, there's no way someone can argue that rain has become more dangerous than sand in Gen V. Almost all competitive battlers agree that Sandstorm still reigns over the other weather teams, especially with the addition of Doryuuzu. Really, even in the rain, rain abusers can still be relatively easily defeated. However, Doryuuzu's doubled speed (which is faster than any common rain abuser's speed) as well as Swords Dance in the sand make him virtually non-stoppable by any means. Also, would you mind telling me which Pokémon exactly has Hydration and is commonly used? Manaphy is probably going to be banned to the Uber tier, and Dewgong and Phione are NEVER used in rain teams. Only Ludicolo has Rain Dish, and he is rarely ever seen with this ability over the much more important Swift Swim. We therefore come to the realization that only Swift Swimmers and Toxicroak are used in rain teams to abuse the rain.

How about Sandstorm? Sand Strength increases the power of Ground, Rock and Steel moves by 33%, which makes Landlos' STAB Earthquake and Stone Edge much deadlier (often regarded as an excellent combo). With a trollish speed stat of 101, it can outrun all base 100's and possibly set up with Swords Dance to increase its great attack stat of 125. This sheer power is not common in Rain Dance teams, who often have to rely on average or mediocre Pokémon to defeat their opponents.
  #92  
Old December 30, 2010, 11:58:39 AM
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You are basically referring to Gen IV with some of your analyzes. If Drizzle stays, then Rain Dance teams can get better strategies than the basic Swift Swimming strategy. Even with just following the Swift Swim strategy, with Drizzle, more Swift Swimmers can be used now. We also have to consider the Rain Dance setters, who are quite popular and quite bulky to set up Rain Dance several times. Although Sandstorm can be set up by several Pokémon, yet you can't find enough useful ones to set it up. Yes, Sandstorm is the most dangerous weather move so far, but Hippowdon and Tyranitar don't deserve to be banned since it is also agreed that the abusers of Rain Dance are more. Garchomp, Doryuzu (who is most probably is going to be banned to Ubers), Gliscor and Landlos are the main if not the only good sand abusers. While in terms of rain, it is Kingdra, Ludicolo, Gorebyss, Kabutops, Quilfish, the new toad. There are dream world abusers as well. Those are Swift Swimmers, while ignoring the rest. So in terms of number, rain abusers are more, and there is no deny that despite that fact that some of them are frail, once they start sweeping you can hardly stop them. In other words, Hippowdon and Tyranitar are less threatening to be considered as Ubers.
  #93  
Old December 30, 2010, 12:40:36 PM
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Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
We also have to consider the Rain Dance setters, who are quite popular and quite bulky to set up Rain Dance several times. Although Sandstorm can be set up by several Pokémon, yet you can't find enough useful ones to set it up.
Isn't Hippowdon a great physical tank? Wasn't Tyranitar considered a top-tier Pokémon in Gen IV? I find your point unjustifiable; Sandstorm has two Sand Streamers, while Rain Dance only got one Drizzler who was in the NU tier. I don't think there's any comparison here. Also, during my personal testing, even after a boosted Surf by Politoed, Tyranitar doesn't get OHKOed. Lastly, "Rain setters" can also be "Sandstorm setters" in many cases; a glaring example is Bronzong, who can set up both the weathers with ease (although unneeded in Sandstorm for obvious reasons). Really, you cannot consider support Pokémon in the rain since they do not abuse it, because they are varying in bulk and because their choice depends on the user's strategy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
Yes, Sandstorm is the most dangerous weather move so far, but Hippowdon and Tyranitar don't deserve to be banned since it is also agreed that the abusers of Rain Dance are more. Garchomp, Doryuzu (who is most probably is going to be banned to Ubers), Gliscor and Landlos are the main if not the only good sand abusers. While in terms of rain, it is Kingdra, Ludicolo, Gorebyss, Kabutops, Quilfish, the new toad. There are dream world abusers as well. Those are Swift Swimmers, while ignoring the rest. So in terms of number, rain abusers are more, and there is no deny that despite that fact that some of them are frail, once they start sweeping you can hardly stop them. In other words, Hippowdon and Tyranitar are less threatening to be considered as Ubers.
Note that I never proposed that these Pokémon should be banned anyways, so I don't know why you brought that up. Also, why did you leave out Terrakion and even Lucario? According to Smogon, these two are great Pokémon which appreciate the residual damage from Sandstorm (and Terrakion gets a special defense boost, too). On top of that, number =/= power. Even if you have a lot of rain abusers, how many of them are actually usable? How many of them have stats as good as Sandstorm members? Garchomp, Terrakion, Doryuuzu, Gliscor, Landlos, Lucario are six common Sandstorm members, and Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, Qwilfish, Huntail/Gorebyss (almost the same thing) and Gamageroge (who really doesn't have impressive stats anywhere) are the primary Rain abusers used. That makes both of them equal in number, though not necessarily in power.

Last edited by Shadow; December 30, 2010 at 12:42:08 PM.
  #94  
Old December 30, 2010, 05:39:05 PM
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Personally, I really hope drizzle doesn't get banned. I think these new weather users allow for a lot more pokemon to shine and politoed is clearly not as broken as kyogre.
  #95  
Old December 31, 2010, 10:13:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Isn't Hippowdon a great physical tank? Wasn't Tyranitar considered a top-tier Pokémon in Gen IV? I find your point unjustifiable; Sandstorm has two Sand Streamers, while Rain Dance only got one Drizzler who was in the NU tier. I don't think there's any comparison here. Also, during my personal testing, even after a boosted Surf by Politoed, Tyranitar doesn't get OHKOed. Lastly, "Rain setters" can also be "Sandstorm setters" in many cases; a glaring example is Bronzong, who can set up both the weathers with ease (although unneeded in Sandstorm for obvious reasons). Really, you cannot consider support Pokémon in the rain since they do not abuse it, because they are varying in bulk and because their choice depends on the user's strategy.


Note that I never proposed that these Pokémon should be banned anyways, so I don't know why you brought that up. Also, why did you leave out Terrakion and even Lucario? According to Smogon, these two are great Pokémon which appreciate the residual damage from Sandstorm (and Terrakion gets a special defense boost, too). On top of that, number =/= power. Even if you have a lot of rain abusers, how many of them are actually usable? How many of them have stats as good as Sandstorm members? Garchomp, Terrakion, Doryuuzu, Gliscor, Landlos, Lucario are six common Sandstorm members, and Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, Qwilfish, Huntail/Gorebyss (almost the same thing) and Gamageroge (who really doesn't have impressive stats anywhere) are the primary Rain abusers used. That makes both of them equal in number, though not necessarily in power.
Just a small question, how is Lucario really benefited by sandstorm? Residual damage from entry hazards help because they let him OHKO certain targets, but 1/16 damage to the foe at the END of the turn isn't significantly useful. That's like saying every offensive Ground, Rock, or Steel type is good at abusing sand. And yeah, they do like having sand up, but its not ultra note-worthy.

Oh, and I REALLY like what Spirit said about how Swift Swim isn't all you should pay attention to in this gen. After all this talk I tried out a rain team, and tried some of the more uncommon options, and found that Dry Skin Jynx (Toxicroak isn't the only one) works a lot like Breloom would. Substitute, sleep move, and 1/8 health restoration at the end of the turn is just as annoying even when its not coming from Breloom. So yeah, Swift Swim isn't all that can be abused in the rain, I found.
  #96  
Old December 31, 2010, 12:09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakazamaster View Post
Just a small question, how is Lucario really benefited by sandstorm? Residual damage from entry hazards help because they let him OHKO certain targets, but 1/16 damage to the foe at the END of the turn isn't significantly useful. That's like saying every offensive Ground, Rock, or Steel type is good at abusing sand. And yeah, they do like having sand up, but its not ultra note-worthy.
According to Smogon, Lucario is mentioned as one of the primary sweepers in the sand. It's true that he doesn't abuse it in any way, but he is not affected by the sand because of his Steel-typing, so that's an advantage over the opposing Pokémon. Plus, when you're building a weather team, not all of your sweepers HAVE to be of the type which benefits the most from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakazamaster View Post
Oh, and I REALLY like what Spirit said about how Swift Swim isn't all you should pay attention to in this gen. After all this talk I tried out a rain team, and tried some of the more uncommon options, and found that Dry Skin Jynx (Toxicroak isn't the only one) works a lot like Breloom would. Substitute, sleep move, and 1/8 health restoration at the end of the turn is just as annoying even when its not coming from Breloom. So yeah, Swift Swim isn't all that can be abused in the rain, I found.
I did not mention any Dream World ability in my previous post, and so I am not willing to consider them for now. Swift Swim and Dry Skin are about the only abilities which benefit under the rain in Gen V before other Dream World Pokémon are released.
  #97  
Old January 1, 2011, 01:48:47 AM
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If we want to follow Lucario's usefulness' philosophy in Sand, then we have got to say that all water types with no exception do abuse Rain since their water moves gain both STAB and 50% boost from Rain.
  #98  
Old January 1, 2011, 09:05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by The Spirit of Time View Post
If we want to follow Lucario's usefulness' philosophy in Sand, then we have got to say that all water types with no exception do abuse Rain since their water moves gain both STAB and 50% boost from Rain.
Of course. That's why Pokémon like Luvdisc are often seen on Rain Dance teams. They abuse the rain incredibly with their high stats and are able to devastate teams due to the rain boosts.

I NEVER mentioned that EVERY Ground, Rock or Steel type Pokémon is useful in a Sandstorm team. Simply, I was referring to what Smogon mentions in one of its articles, and frankly, they probably know more than what I or you do.
  #99  
Old January 1, 2011, 11:18:06 AM
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I just had a thought. Don`t ban Doryuuzu to Ubers, just ban the ability Sand Throw/Paddle/Shovel. That ability makes it broken-ish, but Sand Power is usable without being unstoppable (and is much more useful for my team, anyway), so I`d prefer just having the ability itself banned for use in Ubers only.
  #100  
Old January 2, 2011, 10:27:31 AM
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The voting on the suspect Pokémon is done, and I'm incredibly pleased to say that my votes (along with Spirit's) were almost 100% right:

Darkrai: 49 Bans, 1 Do Not Ban, and 1 Abstain (98%)
Final judgment: BANNED

Deoxys-A: 46 Bans, 2 Do Not Bans, and 3 Abstains (95.8%)
Final judgment: BANNED

Deoxys-N: 28 Bans, 11 Do Not Bans, and 12 Abstains (71.8%)
Final judgment: BANNED

Doryuuzu: 16 Bans, 27 Do Not Bans, and 8 Abstains (37.2%)
Final judgment: PASSED (can be re-nominated next round, though)

Latios: 7 Bans, 38 Do Not Bans, and 6 Abstains (15.5%)
Final judgment: PASSED (can be re-nominated next round, though)

Manaphy: 26 Bans, 17 Do Not Bans, and 8 Abstains (60.5%)
Final judgment: MOVED TO ROUND 2

Shaymin-S: 51 Bans, 0 Do Not Bans, and 0 Abstains (100%!)
Final judgment: BANNED (with a complete agreement between the voters!)

Last edited by Shadow; January 2, 2011 at 10:28:34 AM.
 
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